Is Marriage Worth It?

[Surveyor]

Ofcourse partner selection is hugely important but lets not kid ourselves guys there are plenty good women out there, but we (or perhaps I) have difficulty with getting excited about them. That is on us.

^^

Right now I have multiple classic good girls basically offering themselves to me.

That’s part of the reason a lot of guys get into the community lol

Congrats on reaching the endgame

 

[DoWhatWorks]

but lets not kid ourselves guys there are plenty good women out there, but we (or perhaps I) have difficulty with getting excited about them.

This is a very underrated point, that a lot of competent seducers can relate to.

It’s well and good finding a marriage-compatible girl but are *WE* marriage compatible?

Do we honestly think we can go from double figure lays year after year for decades with crazy fun girls then settle down monogamy wise with a sweet, attractive, stable (but sadly boring) girl?

I don’t know but wouldn’t bank on it personally.

At the very least need to think long and hard about the LTR set up. E.g. mono, one-way mono, non-mono with their respective approaches/ pros & cons

 

[Surveyor]

This is a very underrated point, that a lot of competent seducers can relate to.

It’s well and good finding a marriage-compatible girl but are *WE* marriage compatible?

Do we honestly think we can go from double figure lays year after year for decades with crazy fun girls then settle down monogamy wise with a sweet, attractive, stable (but sadly boring) girl?

I don’t know but wouldn’t bank on it personally.

At the very least need to think long and hard about the LTR set up. E.g. mono, one-way mono, non-mono with their respective approaches/ pros & cons

Just like there’s a work–life balance, maybe a Man should have a sex–other exciting stuff balance…

 

[StrayDog]

Do we honestly think we can go from double figure lays year after year for decades with crazy fun girls then settle down monogamy wise with a sweet, attractive, stable (but sadly boring) girl

this right here is the problem. the gals that really put a spark in me, and actually compel me to want to spend time with them again and again. Well let's just say I'd have a hard time trusting them to be stable partners in a marriage.

The truth is, I am not sure I trust myself to pick the right gal. Or that I can even bring my self to pick at all.

As much as a piece of me longs for the consistency and depth that comes from something like marriage. I've grown accustomed to a wandering heart

As much as I am tired of goodbyes, I seem to be better at them than ever.

Or at least that's how it looks from where I'm standing right now.

Never know though, some old dogs change. Don't they?

 

[Skills]

Bro, this is a seduction forum, what do you expect to hear here? Stuff about pure love till you both die same day?

My point all this threads are so cringe what would happen if I am 40 plus, if ais take over, if I get married...

Yawn useless post is like Nostradamus kj maximus..

Every seducer I know that yell loudest about marriage or mono paranoia end up married, or church fanatic or _____ fill in the blank the opposite of the especulación

Chitown maverick, roosh b, even bd end up married(though open marriage, but still)

 

[TomInHo]

My point all this threads are so cringe what would happen if I am 40 plus, if ais take over, if I get married...

Yawn useless post is like Nostradamus kj maximus..

Every seducer I know that yell loudest about marriage or mono paranoia end up married, or church fanatic or _____ fill in the blank the opposite of the especulación

Chitown maverick, roosh b, even bd end up married(though open marriage, but still)

Huh???

Bro you’re not married either so don’t know what you’re getting at

Purpose of this thread was to bring up ideas and discussion for ways guys can settle down without traditional marriage

Because let’s be real, there are guys here that aren’t cut out for life-long commitment or monogamy

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

I find it fascinating that this is the hottest thread we've had in a while. Everyone's on this thread, reading and posting, all the time. So apparantly the marriage topic is a hot button for guys. That really surprised me because I've never been interested in marriage in my life.

I've had both phases from time to time...

• "I want to be single and free forever, no kids ever."
• "I'd like to stay with one girl forever, if it's the right girl, kids could be okay."

But here's a phase I never had:

• "I'd like to get authoritarian institutions like church and state involved in my personal life."

I was against that before I knew about divorce rape and the court bias... imagine now. I'm just flabbergasted guys are even considering it.

Can't you stay together forever without a piece of paper?
Can't you raise kids without bureaucrats and clergy telling you how to raise them?

 

[Wick]

"I'd like to get authoritarian institutions like church and state involved in my personal life."

Bro, that's the best part.

///

I think a lot of people are delusional about relationships. They expect themselves to be great at it, regardless of experience, and are pretty much surprised and devastated when inevitably the relationship ends.

I think the more sane way to think about it, is like anything else. You'll suck at it when you start, expect yourself to suck at it, make mistakes, lose the girl, but more important PLAN for that. Don't marry the first girl you meet and then be surprised when the government wants to take your money and give it to her and you never see your kids.

Maybe on your 5th longterm relationship you'll realize, that people change, and how to identify someone who is likely to be a good long term mate, and know how to keep your manhood and freedom while doing so. Things like having boundaries, you own "man space" and "man time" that is sacred to you, and you know how to deal with women when they want you to change or commit, and you know how to do it on your own terms that is healthy for everyone.

All that takes years of fucking up. But I also think you can avoid digging yourself into a hole you can't escape, if you don't buy into the disney, societal version of relationships.

 

[DoWhatWorks]

But here's a phase I never had:

• "I'd like to get authoritarian institutions like church and state involved in my personal life."

I was against that before I knew about divorce rape and the court bias... imagine now. I'm just flabbergasted guys are even considering it.

Can't you stay together forever without a piece of paper?
Can't you raise kids without bureaucrats and clergy telling you how to raise them?

A lot of guys here won't like this but reading between the lines, it's mostly for emotional reasons.

Not passing judgement either. Nothing wrong with emotions but we have to be aware of them so they don't blindly lead us.

Whenever this very logical point is raised, the only logical rebuttal is:

1. Successful upbringing of kids is their no.1 goal. As data suggests legal marriage has best outcomes they're willing to take on the added risk

(I think the risk to return profile makes it a no-go but I can understand their perspective)

All the other reasons that are purely emotional are as follows:

2. This woman will leave if I don't marry her --> just lol, women can leave anytime. I'd rather she leaves without that dreaded 50%

3. Status increase from community or workplace --> if you think that $5K annual promotion increase is worth 50% networth... I have snow in the Sahara to sell you

4. People from an older generation did it --> times have changed, look at recent figures. Not your grandparents. Not your parents. Your existing friends and existing generation. That's where the accurate data is.

5. Marriage shows higher "mutual" investment than co-parenting --> How a contract where when one person leaves and gets 50% is "mutual" is beyond me

6. Divorce is no big deal, can just re-marry and earn more --> Think these guys don't appreciate that your energy level in the future will probably be less than it is now... 60 hour weeks when 30? Easy, 60 hour weeks when 50? Not the best for your health.

Me admitting my emotions lol

We've all seen the divorce horror stories. I've worked too hard for someone to take it away just because she could give 7/10 head, looked after babies she wanted anyway and did some errands around the house that I could of paid a maid to do *shrugs*

Final note

Majority of guys who have the fantasy of legal marriage in west are unsurprisingly lower ranking here... Respectfully - I'll leave that there.

 

[Alpha13SC]

2. This woman will leave if I don't marry her --> just lol, women can leave anytime. I'd rather she leaves without that dreaded 50%

Picture this: you found a quality girl(in your terms) with great chemistry, which you see having kids with. She s coming from a traditional family, she wants you but also wants to progress that relationship even more.

You could want as well, but due to "reasons" you don t want to do that step and now she ll stray, go to another guy, maybe not that cool as you, but who will give her what she wants and also she ll behave good to him.

Not saying this is will be the case for everyone, but let s not lie ourselves that we ll find everywhere girls that we totally like, girls that they are worth of having our kids and so on . Me personally, I met very few, even as friends.

That "emotional" step that you re calling is just another step from a whole other ones that we deal with in relationship with girls. It s just the matter that if we decide she s worthing it or not.

Me personally, I m scared af of marriage and everything that implies being tied to that. Fuck the gov, my well being is important.

But at one point, if I have to do it, I ll say fuck it and go 100%.

Alpha13SC

 

[orkie123]

A lot of guys here won't like this but reading between the lines, it's mostly for emotional reasons.

Not passing judgement either. Nothing wrong with emotions but we have to be aware of them so they don't blindly lead us.

Whenever this very logical point is raised, the only logical rebuttal is:

1. Successful upbringing of kids is their no.1 goal. As data suggests legal marriage has best outcomes they're willing to take on the added risk

(I think the risk to return profile makes it a no-go but I can understand their perspective)

All the other reasons that are purely emotional are as follows:

2. This woman will leave if I don't marry her --> just lol, women can leave anytime. I'd rather she leaves without that dreaded 50%

3. Status increase from community or workplace --> if you think that $5K annual promotion increase is worth 50% networth... I have snow in the Sahara to sell you

4. People from an older generation did it --> times have changed, look at recent figures. Not your grandparents. Not your parents. Your existing friends and existing generation. That's where the accurate data is.

5. Marriage shows higher "mutual" investment than co-parenting --> How a contract where when one person leaves and gets 50% is "mutual" is beyond me

6. Divorce is no big deal, can just re-marry and earn more --> Think these guys don't appreciate that your energy level in the future will probably be less than it is now... 60 hour weeks when 30? Easy, 60 hour weeks when 50? Not the best for your health.

Me admitting my emotions lol

We've all seen the divorce horror stories. I've worked too hard for someone to take it away just because she could give 7/10 head, looked after babies she wanted anyway and did some errands around the house that I could of paid a maid to do *shrugs*

Final note

Majority of guys who have the fantasy of legal marriage in west are unsurprisingly lower ranking here... Respectfully - I'll leave that there.

Some people might be emotional. Others just understand the risks and think that in certain situations it's worth it.

I see more emotions in those crying that they dont have control of their life and that the government/divorcing wife is in control.

 

[DoWhatWorks]

Good scenario setting @Alpha13SC , think you've summarized well what a lot of guys here are thinking.

I'll share my latest reflections on how I'd handle it to encourage the discussion.

To be honest I'm a big keyboard jockey in this convo lol so this will be one of my last replies

let s not lie ourselves that we ll find everywhere girls that we totally like, girls that they are worth of having our kids and so on . Me personally, I met very few, even as friends.

I'm in the same scenario as you man. Girls I really click with/see potential in are few and far between. With that said my personal view is increasing my frequency of meeting "quality" (in my terms) girl is a skill that I can improve.

Spoiler: How I'll pull this off

I'm ~10 years off settling down (if ever) but if that means I have to leave countries, 10x my game, upgrade my fundamentals etc. I strongly believe (rightly or wrongly) I could be in a position where I build a rotation of girls where I'd be happy to "settle" with any of them.

Call it male fantasy but my personal experience suggests I have the ability to pull it off... Dark Knight's even mentioned on this thread that he's got solid calls wanting him but he's just not made the plunge.

Based on this frame of mind (that I could get another "quality" girl) is how I'd approach this:

Picture this: you found a quality girl(in your terms) with great chemistry, which you see having kids with. She s coming from a traditional family, she wants you but also wants to progress that relationship even more.

You could want as well, but due to "reasons"

I'd treat this like an advanced "talk"/womanese similar to serious MLTRs.

Spoiler: Womanese Spiel

Listen I adore you. You're amazing and I could see us building an incredible life together. I understand you've got family pressure... I do too, mum wants grandkids to spoil. Because I respect and care for you, I won't waste your time and be upfront. I will not legally married to you. I hate the government and how they mingle in people's lives, you also know what I've built independently before you knew me and I know you'd never do that but I've had people close to me have their lives ruined by unfair separation arrangements. We can have the ceremony, live together have it all just without the goverment in our business.

It's a leap of faith but if we committed to a life together. Between me and you. Fuck everyone else. I'd care for you, be willing to die for you and on everything that's good in this world would make sure you and our future legacy is looked after.... Most people get married and are bored in 6 months, we'd continually fight for our love because it means so much more than some paper or society expectations.

If that piece of paper means more than our relationship, I understand and I'll regret to see you go but will respect your decision & love you from afar.

Some girl may bite... Some girls may recoil in disgust, I'd rinse and repeat until someone agrees or be at peace being single.

The downside of legal marriage is too great for it to be dismissed with "fuck it - I'll be fine" mentality

That "emotional" step that you re calling is just another step from a whole other ones that we deal with in relationship with girls

No other step gives a girl access to 50% of my livelihood if she ever decides to walk away...

Another aspect here (and I'm not trying to offend anyone) is that if someone is a casual 9-5 person losing 50% may not be a big deal. If you worked 60-80hr weeks to build an enterprise, you'll naturally be more emotional about protecting it.

Different strokes for different folks I guess

 

[Surveyor]

I saw a couple guys drawing a “boring”–“fun but flighty” dichotomy

This looks a lot like MWC 2.0 to my inexperienced eyes…

 

[topcat]

I saw a couple guys drawing a “boring”–“fun but flighty” dichotomy

This looks a lot like MWC 2.0 to my inexperienced eyes…

i’ll bite and admit that i do suffer from a form of Madonna Whore. Love whores, can’t stand madonnas. Would never marry a whore though. And don’t think a madonna should marry me. Luckily for all parties, marriage and monogamy have never been things i’ve desired even before I discovered game..

Some odd correlation going on there for sure..

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

Whenever this very logical point is raised, the only logical rebuttal is:

1. Successful upbringing of kids is their no.1 goal. As data suggests legal marriage has best outcomes they're willing to take on the added risk

(I think the risk to return profile makes it a no-go but I can understand their perspective)

Can you cite a source on this?

I absolutely know and agree 100% that kids NEED 2 parents, not 1, to grow up healthy.

Why would a piece of paper from the government make the child more happy?

 

[Police dog]

I'd like to get authoritarian institutions like church and state involved in my personal life

I literally saw a meme about this about CCP:
Your does good work, your gets 1 bawl of rice and 1 housewife.

 

[ulrich]

Why would a piece of paper from the government make the child more happy?

It’s more of a deterrent, I think.

A big punishment so you are less inclined to run your womanizer shenanigans.

 

[Surveyor]

It’s more of a deterrent, I think.

A big punishment so you are less inclined to run your womanizer shenanigans.

Or the other way around tbh

 

[Will_V]

I find it fascinating that this is the hottest thread we've had in a while. Everyone's on this thread, reading and posting, all the time. So apparantly the marriage topic is a hot button for guys. That really surprised me because I've never been interested in marriage in my life.

I've had both phases from time to time...

• "I want to be single and free forever, no kids ever."
• "I'd like to stay with one girl forever, if it's the right girl, kids could be okay."

But here's a phase I never had:

• "I'd like to get authoritarian institutions like church and state involved in my personal life."

I was against that before I knew about divorce rape and the court bias... imagine now. I'm just flabbergasted guys are even considering it.

Can't you stay together forever without a piece of paper?
Can't you raise kids without bureaucrats and clergy telling you how to raise them?

Frankly I think it's because most guys want kids, and therefore want to know how to keep the family together for the benefit of the kids, and how to avoid ending up in a shitshow shared custody battle while going in and out of the family courts and getting your bank account cleaned out.

Marriage as an institution was supposed to help the family stay together. You make your vows with everyone watching, and keep at it through thick and thin until death do us part, and all of that. And because marriage used to be a respected position in society, and divorce a disrespected position, the entire structure of society pressured against either party giving up when things got tough.

You might say, why not just raise your kids without getting married, or doing so without the paperwork? Raise them the way you want to, against the norms, without having get permission from anyone? Well there's a small problem: women are social creatures, and they need to feel the support, directly or indirectly, of the society/community they live in. They have an internal barometer they are always checking which is governed by how well you and the family are becoming the things that society deems to be good and worthy. They sometimes ignore the barometer when they are in love but sooner or later they will be checking it critically. That's exactly what happened with my family, eventually the barometer reading was too far in the red.

Frame control is useful up to a point, but it requires a lot of investment - your time, attention, and the effort required to constantly clap the ball back over the net, and the engine of social conditioning never rests, day in and day out. I have no interest in fighting against it unnecessarily. I would rather that it provided some framework that supported me rather than waging a siege warfare against me and my household. Marriage should be exactly that - an institution that fixes in her mind who she is and what her role is, where she gets validation for continuing through tough times and supporting me, and shame for giving up. Family and the respect thereof used to mean a lot to people, but for a few generations now since people have been brought up as orphans in the education system, no one really gives a toss anymore. It feels great as a teenager, but with this 'freedom' comes a lot of confusion and stupidity, which not only enables the media to operate with incredible effect in people's weakened minds, but also causes a lot of grief, especially for themselves but also for others, when they make dumb and impulsive mistakes.

That is the lay of the land, as I see it. While marriage itself doesn't promise that things will work out, it used to be one of the few supports that men had against the damage that could be caused by the impulsive nature of women. But of course, it's a two way street - the same institution that supports him can be used against him. Which is why marriage these days is a synonym for some dude in mowing his tiny lawn in suburbia while his overweight, argumentative woman chides him over some inconsequential bs. But that's not the way it needs to be, or was for many cultures in the thousands of years since it became a thing.

I have no personal or emotional need to be married. As I've already mentioned, if I wasn't going to have kids I wouldn't see any point. As a species though we have a primary mission to procreate, which is something at least I feel quite strongly, and raising a good family these days is not an easy thing to do. Kids need both parents to develop to their best potential, and just throwing away all the supporting structures of society, such as marriage, puts that at a significantly higher risk.

 

[DoWhatWorks]

Can you cite a source on this?

I absolutely know and agree 100% that kids NEED 2 parents, not 1, to grow up healthy.

Marriage and Child Well-Being: Research and Policy Perspectives

Over the past decade, the linkages between marriage and child well-being have attracted the attention of researchers and policy makers alike. Children's living arrangements have become increasingly diverse and unstable, which raises important questions ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Agreed. I think the cause is stable 2 parent relationships rather than the marriage itself but there's less literature on stable co-parenting.

I've wasted far too much time on this lol - will keep an eye out for Chase's article