Is Marriage Worth It?

[Regal Tiger]

Let's ignore the obvious downsides of a marriage and government: what benefits are there to marriage that you can't get in a relationship?

Genuine question as I'm vehemently against marriage and government diddling with my life. Plus the state of the west right now...

 

[orkie123]

Let's ignore the obvious downsides of a marriage and government: what benefits are there to marriage that you can't get in a relationship?

Genuine question as I'm vehemently against marriage and government diddling with my life. Plus the state of the west right now...

Based on few of the articles I read here, I think many girls will find a way out of a relationship if it gets to X years ( 7 years comes to mind) without you popping the question.

So the benefit is that you get to keep the same girl and thus potentially increasing chance of building a stable family if that is something you want.

As for why girls want that themselves, I imagine the social pressure + the fact that women also take risks in relationships. She may be able to take half of what a man earns, but there are many guys where half of little is very little. If the guy turns violent or a bad father or just stops caring about his wife, she is also screwed. Single moms who may have lost 10+ years on a guy who turned out bad aren't exactly going to have an easy time on the dating market. A single dad who may have half his assets and income taken, could still be high value.

I do think marriage is a bad deal for guys. But not getting married for a girl is also potentially a bad deal. Especially if she is expected to stay at home to look after the kids etc.

 

[DoWhatWorks]

So the benefit is that you get to keep the same girl

Respectfully, when guys think like this it often comes from a place of scarcity.

Single moms who may have lost 10+ years on a guy who turned out bad aren't exactly going to have an easy time on the dating market.

There are plenty of single moms who had kids without being married... Hell some even without being in a relationship/sperm doners.

What is the benefit for a financially successful guy with game going for a girl who insists on a legal contract I.E marriage vs another girl (just as good) who doesn't?

Until someone gives me a logical reason that isn't emotional - I'm firmly in team no [legal] marriage.

You can give a girl the marriage experience (honeymoon, families meet, stability, kids, social outings) without signing anything...

If you're a good guy you'll do this all with a clear conscious & when you resist her pressure, she'll probably like you more too (but never admit it)

 

[orkie123]

Respectfully, when guys think like this it often comes from a place of scarcity.



There are plenty of single moms who had kids without being married... Hell some even without being in a relationship/sperm doners.

What is the benefit for a financially successful guy with game going for a girl who insists on a legal contract I.E marriage vs another girl (just as good) who doesn't?

Until someone gives me a logical reason that isn't emotional - I'm firmly in team no [legal] marriage.

You can give a girl the marriage experience (honeymoon, families meet, stability, kids, social outings) without signing anything...

If you're a good guy you'll do this all with a clear conscious & when you resist her pressure, she'll probably like you more too (but never admit it)

This is the article I refer to https://www.girlschase.com/article/why-women-break-guys-after-years-dating#reality on girls pulling away when you don't offer them marriage/kids etc.

Scarcity or not, girls can have the same mindset too. If she can find guy A who is super chilled but doesn't want marriage, or guy B who is also very chilled and will give her marriage, then I'm sure there will be girls who choose guy B.

At end of the day, it comes down to the risk of each option. Option A is you risk losing good girls and maybe never forming a family because you don't want to take the risk of being screwed over in divorce. Option B is you risk losing a lot of wealth, time and pain because your wife decides to divorce you.

If you think that you can find girls who will give you same lifelong commitment that you want without marriage, then of course - no reason to risk getting married. I think the frame control and game required to achieve this is pretty high up there though, and even then, what happens when after 10 years and 2 kids she gives you an ultimatum? Might not screw you over as much financially, but time is money and this will still cost a lot in time to find a suitable partner no matter how good your game is.

 

[samuraijack]

This is the article I refer to https://www.girlschase.com/article/why-women-break-guys-after-years-dating#reality on girls pulling away when you don't offer them marriage/kids etc.

I remember reading that before and i think the main idea is that a girl always wants to feel like the relationship is moving forward. Marriage checks this box, but also comes with a lot of downsides.

I believe you can replicate certain processes of marriage and satisfy the girls need of relationship advancement. Girls don't grow up dreaming of signing a piece of paper, rather its everything else that happens with a wedding. The celebration, gathering of friends/family, making a vow in front of your loved ones etc. I think you can get all the pros, without the cons by doing this. She doesn't even have to deal with any social repercussions because no one has to know (just an idea not sure if its good to play it out this way). I believe people call this life partnership.

If you tell her you want a life partnership but she says no I want to get married and you go get married that is total shit frame imo.

 

[Kaida]

I think the frame control and game required to achieve this is pretty high up there though,

Is it really?

I've thought about this a lot myself as well, I'm not against marriage personally but like the others have said I don't want to get the government involved.

If you want to commit to a girl while still avoiding the government, I don't think it'd be too hard to explain to your girl that you don't want to sign the piece of paper. Y'all can still have a wedding event, honeymoon, rings, all that stuff if y'all desire.

 

[Will_V]

Besides the paperwork, there's the fact that in a lot of societies you are de facto married for legal purposes if certain conditions are met. Not to mention that a divorce is a legal case with a fair bit of leeway for interpretation of events, and trying to convince a judge that you had good reasons for not wanting to be legally married would be a lot of fun. So just because you don't sign some papers doesn't necessarily mean you are getting away scot free. Children especially make things a lot more complicated, and serving the child's best interests can take priority.

I'm also not sure it's as easy as it seems to keep a girl in a relationship where you are married for all intents and purposes except legally. First of all she knows that she's screwed if you decide to go off and shack up with some other woman and abandon her with your kids. So unless she was really, really in love, I doubt she would be very keen to accept that risk. If nothing else, she knows that the burden of taking care of kids after a separation will likely fall on her, and potentially having to deal with that alone would be hard to swallow just because it's what you want. Maybe she'd agree to that while she was in love, but women can be depended upon to eject from what they consider to be a bad situation without considering for a moment if it's a good strategic move.

There's also social pressure. Women are very bad at keeping secrets, especially from their mothers and best friends, and once it's out that she's in a 'fake marriage' I imagine it would cause you a lot of headache.

I don't think it's impossible to pull off, but it would take a very high level of frame control maintained over a long period of time. And how a court would see things if you ended up there is anyone's guess.

These are my opinions, I don't have experience in raising a family outside of legal marriage, and I don't know anyone personally who has done it, so I'd be interested to see some examples and what it would look like.

 

[Skjöldr]

Besides the paperwork, there's the fact that in a lot of societies you are de facto married for legal purposes if certain conditions are met. Not to mention that a divorce is a legal case with a fair bit of leeway for interpretation of events, and trying to convince a judge that you had good reasons for not wanting to be legally married would be a lot of fun. So just because you don't sign some papers doesn't necessarily mean you are getting away scot free. Children especially make things a lot more complicated, and serving the child's best interests can take priority.

I'm also not sure it's as easy as it seems to keep a girl in a relationship where you are married for all intents and purposes except legally. First of all she knows that she's screwed if you decide to go off and shack up with some other woman and abandon her with your kids. So unless she was really, really in love, I doubt she would be very keen to accept that risk. If nothing else, she knows that the burden of taking care of kids after a separation will likely fall on her, and potentially having to deal with that alone would be hard to swallow just because it's what you want. Maybe she'd agree to that while she was in love, but women can be depended upon to eject from what they consider to be a bad situation without considering for a moment if it's a good strategic move.

There's also social pressure. Women are very bad at keeping secrets, especially from their mothers and best friends, and once it's out that she's in a 'fake marriage' I imagine it would cause you a lot of headache.

I don't think it's impossible to pull off, but it would take a very high level of frame control maintained over a long period of time. And how a court would see things if you ended up there is anyone's guess.

These are my opinions, I don't have experience in raising a family outside of legal marriage, and I don't know anyone personally who has done it, so I'd be interested to see some examples and what it would look like.

Great point from Will_V. I just read about the rules for "de facto marriage" here (called paperless partnership/co-living). From what I gathered, they weren't that big of a deal. Comes with some small responsibilities and privileges (like getting help from the government for your partner when moving to another EU country).

Basically you would have to just manually micro-manage ownership of things, inheritance, who gets your retirement if you die etc. Things that come automatically with a marriage. Atleast here you have the freedom to choose, you just have to be aware of these things.

A "de facto marriage" should be no problem for guys that don't want a legal marriage in my country atleast.

Just wanted to add that to the discussion ^

 

[Surveyor]

Let's ignore the obvious downsides of a marriage and government: what benefits are there to marriage that you can't get in a relationship?

Genuine question as I'm vehemently against marriage and government diddling with my life. Plus the state of the west right now...

Well of course marriage is partly about social control…but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
If you’re gonna have kids, imho it still makes sense to get married in 2023 America — assuming you can ensure the right starting conditions, which isn’t trivial.

I agree there’s no point unless you’re going in with the right frames and on the same page as the girl. And of course you should have already screened her thoroughly.

It’s definitely not strictly necessary to bring organized religion into it…but it will usually make your life easier. Doesn’t have to be you doing anything tho, women historically have been more religious than men on average, you can let her handle it haha…and another benefit is that you can have without getting the government involved.

And as far as being screwed over through divorce…any senior guy here ought to be able to avoid that preemptively. For starters, not every girl has Sex & The City style frames about it.

Their kids seem to be doing just fine

Emphasis on *seem*. Doesn’t mean they are. And cherry-picking examples where it seemed to work doesn’t mean it usually works that way.

I agree about kids, but why do most divorces happen when the kids leave the home?

> 90% of the time it hadn’t been working for a while but they held it together “for the kids”.

And by the way, I’m pretty sure the modern American state-centric legal status of marriage is derived from English rules attached to the establishment of the CofE. Funny how much of that stuff we’ve preserved along with rhoticity and ye other olde things.

 

[orkie123]

I remember reading that before and i think the main idea is that a girl always wants to feel like the relationship is moving forward. Marriage checks this box, but also comes with a lot of downsides.

I believe you can replicate certain processes of marriage and satisfy the girls need of relationship advancement. Girls don't grow up dreaming of signing a piece of paper, rather its everything else that happens with a wedding. The celebration, gathering of friends/family, making a vow in front of your loved ones etc. I think you can get all the pros, without the cons by doing this. She doesn't even have to deal with any social repercussions because no one has to know (just an idea not sure if its good to play it out this way). I believe people call this life partnership.

If you tell her you want a life partnership but she says no I want to get married and you go get married that is total shit frame imo.

Are there any examples of people who have succesfully done a life partnership (Kids but no marriage and they are still together?).

I checked Ronaldo who I've heard is family oriented, and his gf had a prenup done to secure her future. Thats if a judge doesnt decide that they were de-facto married anyway and decides there should be even more privaleges for her and the kids.

Im not saying marriage is a good deal. You can enter a marriage in good frame by choosing which country to marry and doing as best you can precautions, but if you want a family and a lifelong partner, you will most likely have to suck up the risk or limit your potential options extremely (and then she changes her mind anyway and throws the ultimatum card).

You can use good frame to maximise time before marriage but there will be very few girls that would accept family life without marriage at some point.

 

[Will_V]

Great point from Will_V. I just read about the rules for "de facto marriage" here (called paperless partnership/co-living). From what I gathered, they weren't that big of a deal. Comes with some small responsibilities and privileges (like getting help from the government for your partner when moving to another EU country).

Basically you would have to just manually micro-manage ownership of things, inheritance, who gets your retirement if you die etc. Things that come automatically with a marriage. Atleast here you have the freedom to choose, you just have to be aware of these things.

A "de facto marriage" should be no problem for guys that don't want a legal marriage in my country atleast.

Just wanted to add that to the discussion ^

Sounds better than where I live.

That said, I wouldn't be too certain about it, law is always open to interpretation, and your case is only as good as your means to defend yourself, and is also somewhat dependent on your lucky draw when it comes to the judge. That's why lawyers exist and make a lot of money.

I think it's also worth differentiating clearly between a marriage with or without kids. When men get cleaned out in divorces it's often under the pretext of child support. If you're a wealthy guy, you are going to need to support your wife and kids according to the lifestyle you had when married. But whether that money actually goes to your kids or to support Joe Blow who's moved in with her is not something the courts, as I understand it, police very well. A lot of damage can be done to a guy in a divorce on the basis of his kids, whether it's extracting financial support or controlling his ability to see them. And I don't expect it matters all that much if he's married or not.

I don't really understand what's the point of getting married at all if not for kids. If I wasn't going to, I imagine I'd just carry on as usual until my dick stopped getting up.

 

[DoWhatWorks]

This has been a really good discussion.

From what I see the main camps are:

1) Don’t get legally married but have a ceremony, meet families, honey moons etc. to escalate the relationship to satisfy her need(s)

2) Get married because there’s a chance she’ll decline life partnership or change her mind later

I’m in camp 1 for reasons already shared but another one I’m surprised no one is talking about is dating dynamics.

A girl after 10 years with 2 kids is going to have a far harder time finding someone vs you which is even more of an incentive for her to stay

Of course there are no guarantees but I believe in doing your best to stack the odds/probabilities in your favour & letting things fall where they fall.

Ultimately guys in camp 1 would rather take the risk of being “alone” & never starting a family while guys in camp 2 prefer the risk of divorce.

It’s a personal choice.

In any case both camps should do thorough research of the legalities in their own countries and plan accordingly if/when the time comes.

I’m sure we can all agree this isn’t an area you can just casually try / “hope for the best”

 

[Alpha13SC]

I’m in camp 1 for reasons already shared but another one I’m surprised no one is talking about is dating dynamics.

A girl after 10 years with 2 kids is going to have a far harder time finding someone vs you which is even more of an incentive for her to stay

Met a case where the woman stayed with the man for almost 15 years, both in their 50s. Both of them coming from failed marriage.

They were living on an Italy island. Very touristic. The guy had a high status across the whole island. Important man in the construction industry. The woman left him in the end because he didn t put a ring on her hand after her being beside him for more than a decade. Came in home country, got a normal job, living surely no better life than before.

Not saying it s the norm. But they can be stubborn like that.

 

[Will_V]

From what I see the main camps are:

1) Don’t get legally married but have a ceremony, meet families, honey moons etc. to escalate the relationship to satisfy her need(s)

2) Get married because there’s a chance she’ll decline life partnership or change her mind later

Can't speak for anyone else but I'm in neither of those camps. I'd like to avoid marriage if possible while raising my kids, but the question is, what's a realistic way to do that?

Not sure if it was your intention, but the second camp you mentioned there sounds like a guy simply giving in to her frame out of neediness, which is not how I would characterize the position of any of the comments thus far. I think there's simply a reasonable perspective that it would be difficult to not only sell a woman on not getting 'normally' married while still having a family, but also maintain her loyalty to that frame for decades as you raise your kids, long after the relationship is no longer a fairy tale, through all the ups and downs.

I’m sure we can all agree this isn’t an area you can just casually try / “hope for the best”

Agreed. Once you've got a bunch of kids you've spawned into the world and watched and helped them grow since they were little babies, I don't think the frame of being able to walk away that works so well early in a relationship would be very easy to implement. It's the sort of thing you'd want to try and scope ahead as much as possible beforehand.

 

[Will_V]

Met a case where the woman stayed with the man for almost 15 years, both in their 50s. Both of them coming from failed marriage.

They were living on an Italy island. Very touristic. The guy had a high status across the whole island. Important man in the construction industry. The woman left him in the end because he didn t put a ring on her hand after her being beside him for more than a decade. Came in home country, got a normal job, living surely no better life than before.

Not saying it s the norm. But they can be stubborn like that.

Yeah, the divorces I know of are the same. Women making judgements based on emotions, not logic, and putting themselves and their kids in a miserable position just because they didn't like the dude or his frame anymore. Supported by all their female friends and relatives.

I'm doubt marriage itself has much influence over her decision at a personal level about whether she wants to pull the plug on a relationship that's on the rocks, but if her family and society respected marriage, and she was brought up to respect it and feel embarrassed at the prospect of being a divorcee, it might make her somewhat more disciplined in her response to problems.

 

[DoWhatWorks]

The woman left him in the end because he didn t put a ring on her hand after her being beside him for more than a decade. Came in home country, got a normal job, living surely no better life than before.

Not saying it s the norm. But they can be stubborn like that.

I’m 100% sure this happens. Thing is you can easily find a story to back up either side of the topic.

A family friend of mine has 2 adult daughters with a woman he never married. He owns his own engineering business and from the stories I heard she seems slightly cluster B / high drama.

He held firm. Even had a child outside of the LTR from a business trip and she still stayed decades on...

Which is why I think it’s more important for individuals to take a choice based on what downsides they prefer because each option has them.

With your story, the guy will feel emotional pain but can simply get another 40 year old woman and live his life lol.

Maybe I’m just less emotional than most guys to not see that being a big deal

I'd like to avoid marriage if possible while raising my kids, but the question is, what's a realistic way to do that?

I'm probably being slow but I'd interpret this as camp 1 under the banner "don't get legally married" and you raising kids with her is also you escalating the relationship from her perspective...

In terms of realistic way to do this? Honestly I think this forum (including myself) aren't experienced enough to comment on anything besides hypotheticals

Would love (tested) solutions though which is why I'm so engaged in this.

Only guys here who've been married to my knowledge is @Chase and @Skills

Agreed. Once you've got a bunch of kids you've spawned into the world and watched and helped them grow since they were little babies, I don't think the frame of being able to walk away that works so well early in a relationship would be very easy to implement. It's the sort of thing you'd want to try and scope ahead as much as possible beforehand.

For sure man, agreed it's not easy. I think a (potential) solution is having a "poker face" that you're willing to burn everything to the ground if push comes to shove. Truthfully though... What's the worst that can happen? She stops you from seeing your kids?

If you've screened properly chances of that are very low and if you charge it to the game and just try reach out when they're adults.. Is what it is

But again... I've learnt I'm less emotional than most so this thinking won't be viable for a lot of guys *shrugs*

Not sure if it was your intention, but the second camp you mentioned there sounds like a guy simply giving in to her frame out of neediness, which is not how I would characterize the position of any of the comments thus far. I think there's simply a reasonable perspective that it would be difficult to not only sell a woman on not getting 'normally' married while still having a family, but also maintain her loyalty to that frame for decades as you raise your kids, long after the relationship is no longer a fairy tale, through all the ups and downs.

Good to call me out on it, it's just my bias on the topic seeping through. Definitely agree that it's a harder relationship dynamic to pull off and not every girl will accept it.

Call it hubris but I'm a big believer in bucking the trend... I've done it in other areas of my life so think it's very possible to do it here. For example FB's shouldn't last more than 6 months but I've had numerous ones last 2years+

Hell it shouldn't be "possible" for most guys here to have the sex/dating lives that they do...

 

[Will_V]

I’m 100% sure this happens. Thing is you can easily find a story to back up either side of the topic.

A family friend of mine has 2 adult daughters with a woman he never married. He owns his own engineering business and from the stories I heard she seems slightly cluster B / high drama.

He held firm. Even had a child outside of the LTR from a business trip and she still stayed decades on...

Sounds like an interesting example, wish I knew of some personally. There's a lot you can learn from observing someone who's successful at what you want to do.

Curious, was she in the same ballpark SMV as him? Sounds like he would have been quite a catch.

Which is why I think it’s more important for individuals to take a choice based on what downsides they prefer because each option has them.


With your story, the guy will feel emotional pain but can simply get another 40 year old woman and live his life lol.

Maybe I’m just less emotional than most guys to not see that being a big deal


I'm probably being slow but I'd interpret this as camp 1 under the banner "don't get legally married" and you raising kids with her is also you escalating the relationship from her perspective...

In terms of realistic way to do this? Honestly I think this forum (including myself) aren't experienced enough to comment on anything besides hypotheticals

Would love (tested) solutions though which is why I'm so engaged in this.

Only guys here who've been married to my knowledge is @Chase and @Skills


For sure man, agreed it's not easy. I think a (potential) solution is having a "poker face" that you're willing to burn everything to the ground if push comes to shove. Truthfully though... What's the worst that can happen? She stops you from seeing your kids?

If you've screened properly chances of that are very low and if you charge it to the game and just try reach out when they're adults.. Is what it is

But again... I've learnt I'm less emotional than most so this thinking won't be viable for a lot of guys *shrugs*

For me the real issue is kids. I don't have any problem being in an unstable relationship myself as long as I'm having fun, or walking away from something that doesn't suit me. Between two adults it's just a question of desire as far as I'm concerned.

But I do want to be successful at raising my kids, that's what I consider to be my job when it comes to marriage, and I don't like to fail at my job. And I know firsthand the damage that a divorce can cause to a child who does not have the maturity to deal with it the way their parents can.

As my father used to say when my parents ended up getting separated (they never actually got divorced), "for me she's just another woman, but you'll only have one mother, so be nice to her".

Good to call me out on it, it's just my bias on the topic seeping through. Definitely agree that it's a harder relationship dynamic to pull off and not every girl will accept it.

Call it hubris but I'm a big believer in bucking the trend... I've done it in other areas of my life so think it's very possible to do it here. For example FB's shouldn't last more than 6 months but I've had numerous ones last 2years+

Hell it shouldn't be "possible" for most guys here to have the sex/dating lives that they do...

I'm rooting for you! And I hope to find the approach that best suits me as well. I have very little faith in marriage in the West, and if I do end tying the knot it would only be because the structures of the society I was in supported me in it.

The way I see it, in a healthy society, the whole idea of marriage and family is not something that should primarily be carried forward by the man against a backdrop of female freedom and reluctance to commit, the way it is here. That's already a pathetic frame to be part of. Instead the society itself should prize and value it (so that by extension so do the women), and provide successful men with incentives, validation, and status for accepting the burden of the task and doing it well. Because at the end, his children are his legacy, but it's the society they end up being part of that will really benefit from what he has created.

A man should sit on top of the engine of society and have it support him in his work, rather than trying to avoid getting run over by it while micromanaging his woman's emotions.

 

[Tony D]

Personally I'm single, 45, no home, no car, no kids. I travel, I work on my small business, I read, I date younger women for short term fun. My life is pretty great. But I'm really entertained by myself. I rarely get bored, especially with the Internet always there. I don't really feel lonely. I know men my age who swear their kids are the ultimate joy and happiness for them, and I believe it. At the same time, I NEVER hear this about their wives.

 

[topcat]

At the same time, I NEVER hear this about their wives.

Funny, ALL of my married friends expressed the same sentiment when asked how their relationships were:

“if i could take my kid and get rid of the woman i would”

Unanimously the children brought joy while the wife caused headaches..

 

[ulrich]

Why not? Why do we always have to just accept things and not discuss alternative lifestyles and solutions for longer term relationship

Sorry, I didn’t mean to pass a snug know-it-all… just wrote that post in a hurry.

Yeah, I agree, there’s value on discussing alternatives but I do think think there is a zero sum game here to some degree.
If you follow a non-monogamy path, you’re making it better for you while probably making it slightly worst for the children.

I’ve seen plenty of non-standard arrangements in my life, even coming from a couple of them.
(my mom widowed and married another widowed man who had his own children) (also my father had a secret second family)

The common theme I see is that the kids get damaged somehow.

Now, you can’t really protect kids from everything. And conflict is also an opportunity to grow that is needed to mature into an adult.

But you are indeed adding complexity to a kid’s life.
Just something to be aware of…

Yes and No.

I have clients that are very healthy in their 60s. Have a woman that is 66 and can do 10 full pull-ups

I wouldn’t call that weak and as you age you obviously can’t perform as well in your 30s to 40s.

And also if you’re in your 60’s it’s not unrealistic for you to pairbond with a woman in her early 40s that already had kids with another man and only wants you for companionship too

At 60 you reach an age when a congenital disease can appear of what seems nowhere.
One day you’re fine and the other day it turns out you have a debilitating condition.

Of course is the luck of the draw, some guys can stay super active and healthy up to their 80s. No doubt.

Just saying… by 60, you better have your ducks in a row.