Is it wrong that even though i did manage to get a girlfriend, finally get some success, i still feel like an incel? because i was a late bloomer?

[TestY]

Yeah, despite having some success with girls, i still feel like a forever permanent incel for all-time.

That one's self-concept doesn't change even though one has had new experiences is pretty common. Plastic surgeuon Maxwell Malts described that quite a few people still felt "ugly" even after they had cosmetic surgery in his "Psycho-Cybernetics". For his part, he discovered that the solution to this problem was working specifically on his self-image. See this post for more.

I would also recommend looking into the Stoic world-view: Everything that happens, happens for us, and not to us. Happenings can be seen as challenges that can strengthen us, and we can view ourselves as warriors rather than victims. See "The Stoic Challenge":

The Stoics discovered that thinking of challenges as tests of character can dramatically alter our emotional response to them. Irvine’s updated “Stoic test strategy” teaches us how to transform life’s stumbling blocks into opportunities for becoming calmer, tougher, and more resilient. Not only can we overcome everyday obstacles―we can benefit from them, too.

 

[raiden]

I'm in a worse position than you to the extent that if I can achieve what you did at the ages that you did it would be considered a success for me. Since I was 20 I wished on my birthday cake every year to have a good girlfriend. I have had almost all bad experiences. I've achieved reasonable enough health, wellbeing and career/finance success but I never even cared about that. I don't lament the fact that I wasn't born a woman but I lament the fact that I was born a guy with piss poor fundamentals and had no luck with women when it was all that I wanted. I have nothing much to add to the discussion but this post makes me worried that even if I get to your level, I'll still feel bitter and like something was lost that can never be restored, similarly to how I feel about being bullied as a kid. Here's to hoping that I get to your level to find out!

 

[POB]

But more importantly, its a reminder on how i've always hated and resented the dynamics of the game, seduction, courtship, between the 2 sexes.

You hate it because you don't understand it.
Once you do, there's nothing more satisfying than setting women free from all the bad dates, cheating and sexual frustration they've had in the past. They'll stay by your side and love what you have to offer.

Here it is, guys, men, have to talk a certain way, behave a certain way, act a certain way, have certain behaviors, we have to know or learn all of these skills, behaviors, things, so many stuff, just to have a chance with women.

We do, so what?
Of course it's not fair, but what's the alternative?
Being resentful and angry all the time?
Settling with a woman you don't find attractive just because it's "what I can get"?

That's the burden of being born with two balls, a cock and the desire to compete and succeed in a fucked up world that hates masculinity.
You can either:
1) cry us a river and punch a wall or
2) suck it up and sneakily use the system in your favor.

Over here you can learn option 02.

 

[POB]

People have a weird view on how women have it so good, I personally think being a woman is horrible, period, pregnancy, stalkers, harassment, hormones changing, the ones with big tits back pain, drinking cum,dealing with players getting heart broken etc... I can make a bigger block of text on how much it sucks being a woman...

Good lord, I love I was born a man and not a woman.
Woman are in pain all the time; if not physical, then emotional.
They are so used to it that they feel strange and bored when things are ok for an extended period of time.

 

[SteelbookCollector]

You hate it because you don't understand it.
Once you do, there's nothing more satisfying than setting women free from all the bad dates, cheating and sexual frustration they've had in the past. They'll stay by your side and love what you have to offer.

We do, so what?
Of course it's not fair, but what's the alternative?
Being resentful and angry all the time?
Settling with a woman you don't find attractive just because it's "what I can get"?

That's the burden of being born with two balls, a cock and the desire to compete and succeed in a fucked up world that hates masculinity.
You can either:
1) cry us a river and punch a wall or
2) suck it up and sneakily use the system in your favor.

Over here you can learn option 02.

Reminds me of a quote, statement, that completely changed my mindset, here it is:

The quote is "either get bitter or get better".

Do you think that quote applies to men only? I believe it does.

The reason why I like to think that quote applies to men only is because women simply by default are good with men for simply just being born or simply just existing, because for all time, they're the ones that get approached and pursued or hit on or get advances made on them or have men making passes at them and when you are in that position, it means that you always have offers, always have options, are in abundance by default, so because of that, it means you are simply by default attractive to the other sex.

a follow up to one of my previous comments in this thread, when i said "i've felt this way for years now, the way a man talks and behaves, acts, in a conversation or interaction with a woman, is what either makes or breaks attraction, not the other way around. Another way to put it, its only men that need to know or learn how to talk to women, not the other way around."

Well, another way i look at it, is that men are always the ones that have to bring value the interactions, conversations, we are always the ones that have to make it fun and interesting.

Reminds me of another statement that changed my mindset and perspective on talking to women, heres what one guy told me, he said:

"why do you think throughout history, almost all stand-up comedians and public speakers are almost always men, male?, easy answer, they wanted to become better talkers, communicators, in order to attract women"

Another huge source to my anger and resentment over the game, seduction, courtship in general, is that, i know i'm not alone in thinking this way, and i still get mad and angry at myself for the times i accidentally made a woman feel uncomfortable when approaching, either got labeled creepy or thought of as that way. Certain interactions or situations i highly doubt i'll get over, even if i do get better, the times i messed up socially, those will be painful scars on me for the rest of my life.

Is that, women normally never risk having their social awkwardness or social ineptness be dismissed or perceived as weird or creepy when talking to, interacting with the other sex, but men do unfortuneately, its impossible for a woman to get labeled creepy or be accused of having made someone uncomfortable in social interactions between the 2 sexes.

So its like, women can get away with doing poorly socially, have poor social skills, poor social IQ, be socially retarded, but men can't get away with it.

 

[TomInHo]

Can we close this thread?

Lots of solid points have already been made and it’s obvious OP made this for attention and not real feedback

Further discussion seems pointless

 

[ulrich]

@SteelbookCollector Dude, do you even talk with women?

You have a completely warped perception of how their lives work.

The average women puts more effort into being attractive and get punished harder for social mistakes.

 

[Skills]

Can we close this thread?

Lots of solid points have already been made and it’s obvious OP made this for attention and not real feedback

Further discussion seems pointless

is always the same old tired story, seen it a million times:

step 1.- loser or troll makes a thread asking for help or perceive problem looking for solution...

step 2.- posters start helping or teaching

step 3.- they come back with rebottles like a train boiler room salesman doubling down and teaching kj and none sense (0 experience)

step 4.- now they teach you how it is (kj and none sense) or get into frame battles and stupid arguments

step 5.- make a different thread a day or 2 later with the same exact scenario worded different

rinse wash repeat till they get banned or they leave....

 

[Chase]

The reason why I like to think that quote applies to men only is because women simply by default are good with men for simply just being born or simply just existing

You don't know a thing about women, man. I say that as gently as possible.

Well, another way i look at it, is that men are always the ones that have to bring value the interactions, conversations, we are always the ones that have to make it fun and interesting.

Not just men. Males of EVERY species -- mammals, reptiles, birds, insects, you name it.

Males of Every Species Must Learn Game to Mate

Males of every animal species must practice and learn courtship rituals before they’re able to mate. The art of learning to court is a ubiquitous one – it is not human-only! Images created with Craiyon. I’m reading a truly fascinating, mind-expanding book right now entitled The Mating Mind. I’ve...

www.girlschase.com

Women are just responding to the options they have available.

Your problem isn't women. It's all the males you're competing against who are doing a BETTER JOB than you are.

If you want women, but don't want to learn how to out-compete other men, you are gonna need to find some way to eradicate every other male on the Earth. Do some real supervillain stuff. Some kind of Y-chromosome targeting lethal virus that wipes out men but leaves women untouched, and only you have the antidote. Then you can be as lazy and boring as you want and women will be desperate for you anyway because they have no other options.

Reminds me of another statement that changed my mindset and perspective on talking to women, heres what one guy told me, he said:

"why do you think throughout history, almost all stand-up comedians and public speakers are almost always men, male?, easy answer, they wanted to become better talkers, communicators, in order to attract women"

Duh?

But who are they competing with? Who are they trying to be better than? OTHER MEN!

You are COMPETING WITH MEN while RESENTING WOMEN.

I can't get over how guys can be in the ring, getting beat up by other boxers, then at the end of the round the match is called, the guys who beat them up get the trophy, and the loser goes, "Those trophies just have totally unrealistic standards. I can't even..."

Men compete with men for women.

Women compete with women for men.

How is this difficult to understand?

Another huge source to my anger and resentment over the game, seduction, courtship in general, is that, i know i'm not alone in thinking this way, and i still get mad and angry at myself for the times i accidentally made a woman feel uncomfortable when approaching, either got labeled creepy or thought of as that way. Certain interactions or situations i highly doubt i'll get over, even if i do get better, the times i messed up socially, those will be painful scars on me for the rest of my life.

It's the learning process. EVERY guy goes through that. Every GIRL goes through similar things, where she reacted in some awkward way to a guy, shooed away a guy she regrets shooing away and now assumes probably hates her, etc., etc.

The way you deal with it is by continuing to improve socially, so you can be SMOOTH instead of awkward.

This is what everyone does, men and women alike. It is part of the GROWING UP PROCESS.

Is that, women normally never risk having their social awkwardness or social ineptness be dismissed or perceived as weird or creepy when talking to, interacting with the other sex, but men do unfortuneately, its impossible for a woman to get labeled creepy or be accused of having made someone uncomfortable in social interactions between the 2 sexes.

Women get accused of being bitches and sluts.

A socially rejected man is a creepy. A socially rejected woman is a slut. Both are doing things that are generally considered LOW VALUE by the opposite sex. Plenty of people will defend both of them and talk about how actually they are not that bad, but the high value women don't want the creepy guys and the high value men don't want the slutty girls.

Some girls are sluts because they're nymphos. But a lot of girls are sluts because they are socially awkward and inept and are bad at reading men and understanding what men want and holding onto men, so they throw pussy at guys hoping one of the guys will stick around. Sluts are the female creeps (except for high sex drive nymphos, who are in a different category -- they do it because they want to, not because they don't know what else to do).

So its like, women can get away with doing poorly socially, have poor social skills, poor social IQ, be socially retarded, but men can't get away with it.

No they can't.

Again dude... you're just talking out of your ass here, repeating a bunch of red pill talking points from equally clueless dudes.

Q: How much about women does a man who's failed with women know?

A: Not a whole lot at all...

And the guys saying this stuff are all guys who are failing, again and again, with women.

Blind leading the blind, homie... time to wake up and OPEN YOUR EYES.

You're the virgin in the virgin vs. chad meme, but rather than realizing that you're losing because chad is out-competing you, you think you're losing because women have it really easy or something.

We need to have some kind of female version of this so incels can understand it goes both ways... oh wait...

Chase

 

[raiden]

But who are they competing with? Who are they trying to be better than? OTHER MEN!

You are COMPETING WITH MEN while RESENTING WOMEN.

I can't get over how guys can be in the ring, getting beat up by other boxers, then at the end of the round the match is called, the guys who beat them up get the trophy, and the loser goes, "Those trophies just have totally unrealistic standards. I can't even..."

Men compete with men for women.

Women compete with women for men.

How is this difficult to understand?

Does this still apply when women reject all of their suitors to end up single? Many of the women who rejected me over a year ago are still single. This description could well apply to many single women above 33, say. Can we then declare that the woman's standards were unrealistic or that the criteria that she used to reject were unreasonable and harmful (to her own happiness)? Or would you still argue that she rejected all of those guys and ended up single because she has expectations for men based on her experiences with men the past and she didn't see comparable quality with any of her suitors? This could be a past chad boyfriend but even if she's a virgin it could be male figures in her family e.g. a woman might want a guy to be taller than her baby brother. In that case, would you make the argument that the suitors who got rejected failed to effectively compete with the guys/male figures of the past or would you concede that the women can be blamed here for their standards?

 

[orkie123]

Does this still apply when women reject all of their suitors to end up single? Many of the women who rejected me over a year ago are still single. This description could well apply to many single women above 33, say. Can we then declare that the woman's standards were unrealistic or that the criteria that she used to reject were unreasonable and harmful (to her own happiness)? Or would you still argue that she rejected all of those guys and ended up single because she has expectations for men based on her experiences with men the past and she didn't see comparable quality with any of her suitors? This could be a past chad boyfriend but even if she's a virgin it could be male figures in her family e.g. a woman might want a guy to be taller than her baby brother. In that case, would you make the argument that the suitors who got rejected failed to effectively compete with the guys/male figures of the past or would you concede that the women can be blamed here for their standards?

My belief is that there is a minimum threshold that both men and women need to meet to be wanted in a relationship. The qualities for each gender are different but what is happening right now in society is that the threshold is going up while average quality is going down.

Many people end up being single because they themselved are not "high quality" enough to attract a partner who they would be attracted to.

Threshold is going up because more people prefer the freedom of being single and sleeping around - why bother getting in a relationship unless it will be significantly improve your life to make up for lack of freedom.

Quality is going down because people are not having the same social experiences as before and less role models. Parents are not passing on the skills and knowledge and schools are teaching nothing on the topic.

Thats why I l think it is a shame that social skills are not being taught. Imagine if everyone had at least the bare minimum game. Competition for the highest quality would be relative, but I think more people would be in happy relationships with their equal counterpart.

 

[ElChe]

@SteelbookCollector
I have one thing to say and it's that, your bitter feelings and thoughts are not bad to have, and it's not bad to voice them...

But you should set your goal to let go and overcome this bitterness.

Just don't identify with it. Look at the mindsets and how the more experienced people on this thread/forum feel toward women and set that as your goal.

Most people here have felt some form of the bitterness you're feeling, and they're replying to help you burst out of that into positive and energizing mindsets towards women that will serve you much more.

Just keep that in mind.

I think you're close to letting it go

 

[Adventurer]

So its like, women can get away with doing poorly socially, have poor social skills, poor social IQ, be socially retarded, but men can't get away with it.

I don't really know about how to overcome bitterness because I never had this problem even when I was a virgin. However, I can say with certainty that this part is completely wrong

Back when my social skills were zero, I made a commitment to be more social. At work, with friends, doing activities, whatever. I just went straight into every social situation and said whatever I was thinking. It went about as great as you'd think, I said stupid shit nonstop, even to important people, to more popular guys, to hot girls... I was making a fool of myself

What do you think happened ? Nothing. No one really cares. I even made a few friends in the process

So men can completely get away with it. In fact, I would suggest anyone who's struggling with social skills to do the same as I did. Ok you'll get some cringe moments... Guess what, nobody cares but you anyway

 

[gameboy]

This thread really has some good value! Even if OP doesn't give any signs of accepting advice, but for all the others reading it there's a wealth of good information.

 

[ulrich]

Quality is going down because people are not having the same social experiences as before and less role models. Parents are not passing on the skills and knowledge and schools are teaching nothing on the topic.

Thats why I l think it is a shame that social skills are not being taught. Imagine if everyone had at least the bare minimum game. Competition for the highest quality would be relative, but I think more people would be in happy relationships with their equal counterpart.

I wonder if that is a consequence of the hyper-tolerance environment we live on nowadays.

People are not allowed to point out social mistakes (you get labeled as intolerant), evidently self-defeating actions get labeled as cultural enrichment or neurodiversity (surgically removing your dick is “brave” ffs) and former paragons of virtue are replaced by the mundane (statues/paintings of Alexander the Great or other heroes are no longer erected… instead you get advertising with a fat model or an anime character).

We no longer celebrate nor model excellence and the standard is lowering, yet at the same time people scratch their heads at why they are constantly losing in attraction… a field where standing out is the most basic requirement.

 

[orkie123]

I wonder if that is a consequence of the hyper-tolerance environment we live on nowadays.

People are not allowed to point out social mistakes (you get labeled as intolerant), evidently self-defeating actions get labeled as cultural enrichment or neurodiversity (surgically removing your dick is “brave” ffs) and former paragons of virtue are replaced by the mundane (statues/paintings of Alexander the Great or other heroes are no longer erected… instead you get advertising with a fat model or an anime character).

We no longer celebrate nor model excellence and the standard is lowering, yet at the same time people scratch their heads at why they are constantly losing in attraction… a field where standing out is the most basic requirement.

I think you are right. The lack of local communities and some social consequences for acting in a certain way means that people have nothing to lose.

You can make a complete fool of yourself, maybe even make it viral on the internet because someone recorded it, and a few months later no one will care/remember.

Of course, there is also advantages to that

 

[Skills]

I just remember @Teevster had a post in nextafs) on what would happen, if the women were just like men or gays aka a free sex society, (don't know the name so i can have someone find in nexasf.... But i read it, and i did not like the outcome..... (post made sense no fictional)... It someone related to op cause it would be equal sexual type society dynamic. There were posters dreaming of that in nexasf like nwp.

I seen multiple scenarios with dudes had no real competition, and the guys could not land the girl even with no competition, just unattractive (not even physical wise or fundamental wise)... Lets not forget the op got laid and has a gf, he is just upset of putting so much effort why he believes his gf or women had no effort..... I also think this is flawed women put a lot of effort and selecting and screening and have to learn to spot incongruencies and bs (though seducers get around that).... They also put effort into appearance...

The way dynamics work with women, is at the meet the dude naturally is more invested than the girl is (women are the buyers), men are typically the (sellers).... Once sex happens it more of an even field (well now a days couple of times in sex, which is why seducers focus so much on sex).... Think about it evolutionary women can get kill, get prego, get the rep trash etc... So again the burden on performance is one the male.... (of course there are ways to flip dynamics but requires almost a lifetime of effort and even then women are the buyers)....

Op just need to change the ras (reticular activation system) and look at things in a different way, starting by not consuming red pill and incel content...

 

[Skills]

guys i found the post from teevester that i reference above (theoretical in nature) but is a theory i think i agree on what would happen if we are equal no effort in the mating process:

"Intro/Disclaimer

It seems like this community is advocating sexual openness and a particular view on how men should behave toward women and their own sexuality, while they fail to really understand the bigger picture and the other people around them who are not identical to themselves or the group they belong to(in our case the community). I Decided therefore to write an essay about what has often been reffered to as the matrix. Again this a rather philosophical essay. I do share some insights on evolutionary biology. You might disagree with what I write on this concern, but the main point of this essay is to illustrate how the secret society works, why it exists followed with a description of the members. I hope the discussion will be based on these facts and not the part concerning evolutionary biology, because I have to admit it, I am no expert. Also keep in mind that this is a very abstract text. This is just how I see the world. Your view might be different and I accept this fact. This post is based on an old post by Tyler Durden called "The Secret Society". You can find a link to the original post here: http://www.bristollair.com/2008/inner-g ... t-society/



The Sources Of The Secret Society


Morality In Our Society

Our society is made of a vast population - people from different backgrounds, values and desires. Groups will be created, then norms and from there constitutions as well. These moral norms have been created with an intention. Sometimes, and even often these intentions are good, but sometime they are made to create order in our society, without really having a good normative justification. Some of these moral laws have the purpose of limiting our primitive nature for the welfare of the majority. It can be argued whether this solution is a normative good thing or not. However, as a matter of fact, this is the status quo these days. We have some moral laws that have become somewhat accepted by the majority and thus become conventional. This means that each individual in our society expects us to follow these “rules”.



Human Nature, Mating And Sexuality

As an example, which this topic is about, is our sexuality and our relationship to the opposite sex (I am not taking into consideration homosexuality). Human beings require sex, all off them. It is part of our survival instincts. Evolutionary biology has ingrained in us a drive to reproduce - to bond with other human beings and have sex with them. However, the reproduction process is unjust and works like a system of “survival of the fittest” which means that some humans will be better off in their search of mates than other. The explanation is that humans get sexually attracted to people with better genes, such as looks, attitude, and behaviour. Sadly, humans are not equal when it comes to genetics. Some are more attractive than others as some have better genes. The mating game was rather hypergamous. Only the best men would have a female mate and vice versa.

However, things turns out to be even less egalitarian for men than for women. In fact each women have pretty much equal status. Men, still being interested in finding mates of good genes (especially when it comes to looks) they are still not so dependent of it. This is because men are more independent when it comes to survival than women. Men are thus less desperate about finding the mate with the perfect genes, but instead have more interests in spreading their genes to as many women as possible in order to guarantee their reproduction and hopefully impregnate one women will good genes. However on the other side, women can only be impregnated by one man at the time, and getting impregnated for a women is not an easy deal. She is stuck for 9 month with pregnancy, and if we consider we lived as the cavemen’s did, which means that no constitutions nor laws were created, but simply allowing our natural instincts ruling, then we can conclude that men have no obligation to raise up the offspring, whereas the women has to do so due to her maternal instincts. Consider that women are also in hurry to reproduce, as the longevity of her fertilely is limited.

The main point we could take from this is that most men cares more about quantity whereas females more about quality. Women are more selective than men – only the men with the best genes will be attractive to women. This however, creates certain problems that many believe we should not live with in our society. The problems lies in the fact that a little group of men, will be extremely attractive to women (often referred to as alpha males – a minority), resulting in the majority of men, who are less sexually attractive, remain useless (often referred to as beta male – the majority). However, for females, the story is a little different as most women have a chance to find a mate, and the mating game is rather egalitarian – in general the numbers of mates per females is rather equal. However, for men, it is only this group of very attractive males that gets all the females. Nature is mean. All humans have a reproductionary instinct, and this instinct is of a great importance. The problematic occurs when there are males who are not able to find a mate – in fact, this goes for the majority of men, as most women only seek the most attractive males and therefore only have sex with males from this small group.


The Introduction Of Monogamy And Equality

Men were able to kill each other in order to gain values, mates and welfare. This is indeed very relevant as we have seen, men are very jealous at other men who are getting a lot of positive female attention. This has resulted in killings, exclusion and any other means to acquire power. Some ended up victorious, often the strong males, whereas some lost the battle.

As nature is mean, humans have gathered and creating contracts – this is called contractualism. This is when most men, especially the majority whom were the losers of the battle of fittest, prioritized security over the freedom of fighting for their own welfare. Their desire was to introduce a contract that could guarantee each man a level of security in order to guarantee their belongings. A lot of positive effects for everybody have been generated this way. We have introduced laws and constitutions that guarantee our security, our belongings while allowing a development of our society that has benefited us all. However, not every aspects resulting from these societal contracts have benefitted us all. In fact, on the mating scene, the introduction of monogamy has taken place to guarantee everybody’s safety on the prize of his or her freedom. As we have seen, the majority of men were not the winners in the mating game, and only a small minority of attractive males (the alpha males), ended up with all the females. Therefore as the genetic weakest men were the majority, they introduced monogamy with the purpose of making a more egalitarian society, which guaranteed and secured each man one single mate – for life. This has been amplified by the introduction of religions (such as Christianity), constitutional laws and conventional moral laws. Marriage was one way of worshipping this new order.

This way, our society became egalitarian on the mating scene. The few very attractive men, who were taking all the mates, were now supposed to be more or less equal to any other men, and the men who used to be the loser of the mating games, are not anymore as big losers as they used to be. This is why the majority of men not only enjoys monogamy as a chose of life, which is in their freedom, they also defend the ideal against anyone who challenges it, disagrees with it or simply choose to live differently. Most women are also defending the ideal of monogamy as this guarantees them perpetual security and provision, for themselves and their offspring.


The Introduction Of Sanctions For Anti-Conventional Behaviour

It is also very important to point out that men were introducing this concept of monogamy. Therefore in order to control and force women to join their new order of the mating scene, they had to use rather severe means. The use of punishment all the way to capital punishment, sanctions, and high use of shaming have all been introduced in order to make women obey to the rule of monogamy. The most common type of sanction was shaming, especially the “slut-shaming” where a woman was judged for having promiscuous activities – these women who practiced the following were often excluded, viewed as incorrect, unclean, sluts, whores… This could ruin the social status of women, as exclusion could work against their need for security they so much seek. Therefore women have become rather protective and careful about their actions and sexuality.


The Secret Society

However, even though the introduction of the new order of monogamy which worked against human nature, did indeed appease it and created some order. However the laws of nature still remains and biology can only be appeased but no social norms can rule it out. As a matter of fact, women are still biologically the same, and the most attractive men in the mating game that used to have many options, remains as attractive and will still has the same options. The only big difference is that the conventional views, morals and values that have been introduced with the new order of monogamous thinking were working against them. As a result, these few men have continued their sexual activities with multiple females. But as these businesses were viewed as rather shady, bad mannered and immoral, they became underground and secret. A secret society was thus born.

This society, which would be more indirectly described as an abstract sub-culture had to remain secret in order to not awake the anger of the majority of men and guarantee the security of female members – as we just covered, was severely sanctioned for having promiscuous activities. Therefore the membership of this society was secret, with the purpose of protecting the members from sanctions from the majority. As this secret society was allowing for “promiscuous” activities to take place, which was usually seen as immoral by the majority (who were outsiders), the members who were practicing these activities inside this secret society accepted them. Therefore levels of non-judgementalism became a core element of this underground movement. The activities who were normally seen as immoral by the public - the outside world, was in the secret society seen as completely normal and maybe even moral.

Jugementalism inside this “secret society” would destroy the main values of it, and result in killing itself from within. Therefore mutual acceptance and respect of desires were the primary values that kept it alive. As most people, especially females feared the sanctioning from having promiscuous activity, these people had no choice than to behave like the rest in public. But behind closed doors, reality was completely different. The members, who again contained a majority of females and a minority of men, who were the most sexually attractive, could now be allowed to unleash themselves and let themselves loose. However the member tend to have a “normal” life in public beside their membership of this underground society. Most of them were acting like the rest – publicly defending monogamy, especially women, as the consequences of behaving or speaking out against the ideal of monogamy were severe. Therefore, the female members would act like “well-mannered Madonna’s”, non-promiscuous and hide their true sexuality in public. However, their behaviour was far from reflecting their true self. Their secret society behaviour, were these were sexually free, had to and undercover, almost non-existent to the public.

As a result, women would only behave like secret society members – being sexually open, open for promiscuous activities and being honest about their true sexuality only in the presence of either female members, or in the presence of the few men who were also members. But as the secret society remains truly secret, nobody from the outside would be accepted into it. This means that even if some members gathered, the secret society would not be revealed if any one from awareness from the outside were taking place. If an outsider were present the member would simply keep acting like they would do in public – behaving according to the conventional moral laws.


The Communication of Membership

Since the minority of men are members of the secret society, women could not risk being open about their membership – they, more than men had to keep their membership very secret due to the severe punishment, which men was less of a victim of – at least to a certain degree. Therefore the men had to reveal their membership to the women in order to allow the female members to express their membership in return. The other way around would not have been possible as if women could risk expressing their membership to men who weren’t members (which is a majority), they would not only have higher risks of meeting men who would sanction them, but the sanction would be very high. Therefore, men have to reveal their membership first in order to allow women to respond.

The way the male member communicated their membership was by showing signs of sexual openness and acceptance of human nature - by understand their own and the women’s sexual nature. This is done by communicating a non-judgemental attitude toward sex, mutual understanding, communicating an interest in committing promiscuous activities, in other words understanding the purpose of the secret society. The purpose as we have seen was to keep promiscuous activities between a regulated group of people away from the public as these activities had big consequences for them, especially women. When a man has communicated his membership, a woman will communicate hers in response and the rituals could finally take place.


A Sexually Liberated Society To The Rescue Of The Current Order?

Today the idea of monogamy still lives, yet is challenged as religious influences has decreased, our laws are more liberal as a result of sciences and awareness of our own nature. Still, the idea lives strong today but as our awareness of our of own sexuality has increased, many have questioned this ideal. Many have been thinking about other ways of doing playing the mating game that might sound more appealing. An example of what have been advocated a lot is the idea of introducing universal polyamory as a replacement to universal monogamy. However, these who advocates this new possibility fails to understand the differences between what works in theory and what works in practice. In fact, there is a reason, as we have covered for why monogamy was introduced and why the ideal is so strong – it is because most men are not attractive on the mating market. The ideals of monogamy were made to secure the majority of getting one mate, and keep it forever. With the introduction of universal polyamory, we re-introduce freedom of sex – the same problem that was around before monogamy was introduced, that is that the it will favour those few men who are very sexually attractive to females, which is a minority, on the cost of the majority, the men who are not so attractive on the mating market.

However many have argued for a change in our society by making it more sexually liberated, where everyone would behave like members of the secret society. That monogamy disappears, and polyamory would become the new doxa. That men and women would have sex with each other without implications and sanctions, no judgement for sexual behaviour. A world were everybody enjoys each other sexually, an egalitarian world where everybody is happy.

Of course, I agree that this ideal of universal sexual liberty sounds like a positive idea, but it remains a utopia that can’t take place, for multiple reasons. First of all, it will put things back where it all started – the same minority of men will get all the females and the majority will be left out without mates. A lot of conflicts as a result of the frustration of the majority of men who are left behind will take place. There will be no structure on the mating game; resulting in no peace and the society will stop moving forward. Monogamy and restrictions of human sexuality was in fact introduced with the purpose of creating justice, as a response to nature who was acting unjust. Therefore it is practically impossible to introduce this utopia. Also, if we leave out this problem and consider the mating game completely egalitarian (which it is not), then the introduction of a society that is completely sexually free will result in the death of the secret society, which will remove from the members all the privileges we have gathered. We might sound egoistical, but that is what an attractive male is, and deep inside of us, we do not want to risk our privileges for the common good, especially when there other solutions that are better such as having universal ideal of monogamy in our society, while having a secret society that remains underground. This way, everyone becomes happy. The males who were usually not attractive on the mate market will now be under control, while they will remain ignorant of the fact that their woman, who still seeks the most attractive males, will keep having sex with these males in the context of a secret society.



Equality – Making All Men Into Secret Society Members?

Many would argue that all these men, who are not favourable on the mating market, could simply work on themselves and thus become secret society member on their own. All that is required to make the mating game just and fair was to hope that men would simply work on their beliefs, attitudes and confidence and thus become sexually attractive secret society member. There are multiple objections to the following. The first one is that not all men are fitted for development – in fact they lack ambitions to do so. They are lazy. Laziness and lacking motivation to pursue any higher goals is one of the greatest signs of weakness – which is unattractive to women. These men do not want to get better. On the other hand, we need those men – not everyone can or should become winners. Of course some men can become more sexually attractive and become secret society members, simply because the required ambitions, they have the ambitions most men doesn’t have and they are willing to fight for welfare, status and their own well being. This is a rare trait, and even if those men don’t have any success yet, they still have the potentials. That is all that matters.

Keep in mind that looks shows good genetics and is attractive to women, but attitude and confidence is also very important, maybe even more. The good thing is that these things can be handled, and a man can develop himself into a sexually attractive male. He can also better his looks for that instance. Women find men with potentials really attractive as well, of course less than men who already have success, but if a man wants to succeed and pursue his goals, he will get there. Some men would have to work more than others, but if a man truly seeks victory, victory should follow. But the majority are not among those, they are not willing to change, they are not willing to challenge their beliefs, they are not willing to move away from their misery and these men simply want to be stuck in their weak life. Therefore the idea of monogamy will remain to exist, because these men will remain the way they are, and would remain “happy” about it.


The Traits Of The Secret Society

However, a man with ambitions and willing to change will not be guaranteed an entrance into the secret society. Many men do have social success, often when it comes to power, and social values. These things are indeed attractive, but are not secret society like. These traits are attractive to women, but in a way that is not purely sexual. In fact, women become rather interested in the man’s social values rather than sex. This makes them rather good providers rather than good lovers, men who are used simply for sex, the sex itself. Instead, these men who are good providers, are actually well fitted for monogamy. Women in fact, have nothing against keeping a man for a long time, in a monogamous relationship, as this guarantees her security and welfare. However, they will still seek the best genes and the best sex. The men who are the most sexually attractive to women are secret society members. These members are very confident about sexuality, have an attractive attitude and positive mindsets around sex and women. As we have covered above, any “rituals” that takes place in the secret society are viewed as taboo, and therefore a man needs to sub-communicate his membership to women in order to allow them to take place.

Therefore a man who wants to become a member of the secret society need to have ambitions to challenge themselves and the conventional views about sex (such as those of monogamy), to become more confident, to develop an attractive attitude. They also need to learn the rules and the codes of the secret society. If they don’t learn the rules, they can’t be accepted as members, as the secret society is created as an underground movement, with the purpose of allowing selected members to live out their sexuality in a protected environment, and therefore a lot of precautions have to be taken – therefore there are a lot of rules and codes. The first rule is being non-judgemental about sex – nobody is allowed to judge anyone for their desires and sexuality, people gets judged a lot in society and the purpose of the secret society is to exactly allow activities that the public is judgemental about. Another rule is mutual understanding when it comes to sexuality. The secret society has been created as a result of a mutual interests between selected members, therefore understanding each other is a requirement. Other rules could be described as being passionate, adventurous and positive toward sex, the secret society was made as a result of individuals (the selected members) not being satisfied with the conventional practice of sex.

As the secret society had to remain secret, in order to become a member, men have to communicate their membership. If they don’t, they will just be perceived like one of the rest. They will simply not appear as members in the eyes of the other members. Therefore a man needs to learn how to communicate their membership. This is often done by sub-communication. Acting non-judgemental, showing mutual understanding, accepting others view on sexuality, being adventurous, displaying a desire to have sex without any implications (such as following any conventional rituals such as having sex in the context of a monogamous relationships) , displaying a desire to experience sex for the sex itself, willing to experiment and willing to make sex happen under the frame of the secret society. Basically, it is all about communicating the elements of the secret society, it’s purpose and it’s rules. This way, a man can communicate his membership.


Conclusion

Nature is unjust. Some men were very victorious in the mating game got all the female mates, whereas others were left behind. Sadly, only a little minority were victorious in the mating game. As the Majority were the losers, they have gathered together with the hope of creating an order that would help maintain justice in the mating game. This was done by the introduction of ideal such as monogamy, putting restrictions on men who had success in the mating game, in order to redistribute an equal share to everybody. However, this went against human nature, and those who used to be successful in the mating game before the introduction of these new ideals, gathered together into a secret society, hidden from the outside world, where they could practice activities that were normally disapproved by the public. This secret society had to remain secret. Therefore a lot of codes and rules were introduced. The main elements of the secret society was acceptance and mutual understanding, being non-judgemental and having a desire to commit promiscuous activities. While some has advocated the necessity of reform in our conventional views around sex, monogamy will remain as it guarantees safety and security for the majority, who, without it would gain big losses. Therefore the secret society will remain, forever."

 

[SteelbookCollector]

My belief is that there is a minimum threshold that both men and women need to meet to be wanted in a relationship. The qualities for each gender are different but what is happening right now in society is that the threshold is going up while average quality is going down.

Many people end up being single because they themselved are not "high quality" enough to attract a partner who they would be attracted to.

Threshold is going up because more people prefer the freedom of being single and sleeping around - why bother getting in a relationship unless it will be significantly improve your life to make up for lack of freedom.

Quality is going down because people are not having the same social experiences as before and less role models. Parents are not passing on the skills and knowledge and schools are teaching nothing on the topic.

Thats why I l think it is a shame that social skills are not being taught. Imagine if everyone had at least the bare minimum game. Competition for the highest quality would be relative, but I think more people would be in happy relationships with their equal counterpart.

something off topic but and it doesn't involve the theme of this thread, but this happens to be something i have agreed with for years now, and many people who identify as life coaches agree, they say it sucks and its too bad, and mind-boggling that we had to learn Algebra in school growing up instead of conversation-skills or just being able to socialize and connect with people, relate to people.

"It is really too bad, unfortunate, sad, that our schools do not teach conversation-skills, conversation-ability, human interaction ability, ability to connect with people, or that our society, the governments of the world, doesn't place more importance on those. They are just as important as math or history or any other subject.

Hell, to me, they are much more important, thousands of times, millions of times more important, because communication is the way you climb social-ladders." "The better you are at conversation, the easier it is to get a job, promotion, attract people to form relationships, networking with people to advance professionally, networking with people for job prospects, and befriend people with ease"

"Knowing how to be socially confident, or communicating with people well, socializing with people successfully is so important.

It’s unfortunate, too bad, tragic, because the majority of the education we get in school in our teenage years, formative years, is academics like Chemistry, Physics, or Math, History.

However in the real world, those things don't matter as much. It’s really your ability to inspire, communicate, to lead, and engage people that’s going to move you in upper management if you’re climbing a corporate ladder, and what gets you a date if you’re single, befriend new people, and you want to put yourself out there, and even build a brand new network to advance professionally if you’re in a new city. That’s what it means to me."

 

[DoWhatWorks]

@POB you mind closing this thread?

OP is clearly not ready & is now going on random tangents about the school system lol

I also suggest we block or suspend him. This forum’s had minimal troll’s/time wasters & we should keep it that way.