FU This is a mystery to me

[Higher]

Met this Latina a couple weeks ago. I already had a trip planned to her city for this week. I told her this, and she told me, cool then lets keep in touch, maybe we get a drink.

I ping her once before the trip, we text/build rapport a bit and i leave it at that.

So fast-forward to today.

I ping her today, she replies warmly. I banter/flirt a bit, then tell her im in her city and we could grab a drink sometime. She replies with a few voice messages, basically telling me, sure lets catch up today, lemme just have a shower and relax a bit and then im ready.

So we agree on meeting at 7pm. We meet, go grab a couple glasses. She tells me shes 37 and a single mother of a 20yo. Shes got a bunch of tattoos.

Vibe is overall great. We touch each other a lot, then we kiss. We go for a walk while holding hands, then we go grab another drink. At the place, we kiss and touch each other even more, and she comes very close to me multiple times to feel my body on hers. She tells me the last date she had was a year ago with a dude from my own country, and she tells me that i made her change her opinion on my fellow nationals.

I feel its going great, so i decide to invite her home. She tells me, no i dont do that on the first date. I tell her, we dont have to do anything, i was just thinking about listening to some music and chatting. Shes like, nah i know how these things go, so i typically dont wanna do it, thats probably why im still single. I dont insist and tell her, its ok. I dont think my behavior towards her changed after this.

She then suggests to leave. We go for a short walk towards the metro station, then we hug goodbye.

I text her, thanks for the evening, lemme know when you get home. She replies an hour later with a voice message, telling me that everything was great, but shes a good observer and theres nothing less attractive than a man that looks at a woman with doubts of not knowing what to do. Even if its a matter of one night only, a woman needs to feel secure and you should not hesitate.

Im utterly flabbergasted by this. I dont think i did anything to even remotely suggest that, but clearly im missing something.

Im writing this in a rush right after getting her vocal, but do you guys have any idea of what might have gone wrong?

And also, what would you reply?

 

[DarkJedi]

I get a sense that you were giving strong, sincere boyfriend vibes, even though you were being physical etc. and she put you in that box.

Shes like, nah i know how these things go, so i typically dont wanna do it,

Everytime I've gotten a line like this, it's not that the girl doesn't do it, it's coz she ain't feeling it with you at that moment.

shes a good observer and theres nothing less attractive than a man that looks at a woman with doubts of not knowing what to do. Even if its a matter of one night only, a woman needs to feel secure and you should not hesitate.

Maybe the way you asked was not fully confident and/or the moment wasn't right for her.

Lemme ask you this: were you in a confident headspace when you made the ask? Or more like hoping she says yes? Coz I also have this problem when I'm being unsure (my own FU report coming up soon lol)

What might have worked better would be either to build more tension through touch or verbals (instead of defusing it by kissing a lot) or by being more dominant/fuckboi

 

[gameboy]

"you should not hesitate" -> you should have insisted more

That's how I read it.

 

[POB]

She is 37 and single mother...that age range has ASD through the roof!
What you missed were preemptive gambits to disarm her ASD...this should've been done when you met her at the first location.
Sooner you do it, the better

 

[Higher]

Thanks for the great answers @DarkJedi, @gameboy, @POB.

I get a sense that you were giving strong, sincere boyfriend vibes, even though you were being physical etc. and she put you in that box.

Yeah, i guess thats how i run my interactions. I dont know if i can get rid of this/tone it down, because thats the most genuine i can be.

I always try to balance it with good touch/kiss and frames such as improvising, living the moment, importance of chemistry even with one-night things, etc. I suppose i could ramp this up even more.

(We were also speaking in spanish, and im not at all fluent with it.)

were you in a confident headspace when you made the ask?

Yes - we were vibing great, making out in her favorite place from her younger years, we were touching each other under the clothes, i was locked in at the bar and she was pushing close to me.

It just felt natural to invite her home.

you should have insisted more

Trying to think when i could have done that. Im pretty sure she closed up right after we left the last location - ie. 5 mins after i invited her home.

I coulda persisted once more while at the metro station i suppose.

What you missed were preemptive gambits to disarm her ASD

After making out at the first loc she told me, you know, i never kiss guys on the first date. I told her, why, you havent met one you really like yet?

This was done to sorta paint kissing as a natural thing between two people that are attracted to each other.

Based on your feedback, its clear this was not enough and i should have done more.

--

Not sure how i should reply now.

Every response i come up with sounds defensive/butthurt. Even just reacting to her vocal (eg. with ) seems pretty bad and dismissive.

EDIT: her vocal ended with a LJBF.

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

I feel its going great, so i decide to invite her home. She tells me, no i dont do that on the first date. I tell her, we dont have to do anything, i was just thinking about listening to some music and chatting. Shes like, nah i know how these things go, so i typically dont wanna do it, thats probably why im still single. I dont insist and tell her, its ok. I dont think my behavior towards her changed after this.

You lost it here. Well, you lost it before this, but this is really where you fucked it.

You try to tell a tattooed up 37 year old woman who probably had her hoe phase many times over that you just want to "listen to music and chat." She saw through that bullshit so fast and you lost all credibility in her eyes.

Also, you were holding her hand on the first date? Unless you know how to run romantic sexual game, this is a very risky move. Way too boyfriend-y, especially for (insert all of her titles - single mom, tattooed, 37, etc).

You should have put all your cards on the table -

"You know what, you're right. I do want to have sex. I won't hide my intentions. Clearly I'm very attracted to you and you to me, considering our nice makeout"

*step in closer and hold her waist*

"I want to spend the night with you. We'll only go as far as you're comfortable but..."

*stroke her cheek gently*

"I'm very attracted to you. Now that i'm being very upfront and honest, what are you thinking?"

*strong eye contact. pierce into her fucking soul*

but shes a good observer and theres nothing less attractive than a man that looks at a woman with doubts of not knowing what to do. Even if its a matter of one night only, a woman needs to feel secure and you should not hesitate.

she used these exact words?

Yep, I called it. You hid your intentions and that cost you her trust.

"Feel secure" = A man who is upfront and honest about what he wants = you needed to go all out when she called your bluff of coming over just to "listen to music."

Women don't trust men who cloak their intentions. There are certain moments in time where you NEED to be direct and this was one of those moments.

That's what she meant by "not hesitating." You hesitated in your intentions. Yes, this means to persist, but more importantly to persist with CLARITY.

In other words, tell her you want to fuck her holes lol. Use whatever language comes most natural to you, but you should make it abundantly clear you want to smash some pussy that night and see if you can't stretch her out more than her kid did when she popped him out.

Where's your fucking balls?! LETS GO BUDDY. BIG DICK SWAGGER.

Hector

 

[Higher]

You try to tell a tattooed up 37 year old woman who probably had her hoe phase many times over that you just want to "listen to music and chat." She saw through that bullshit so fast and you lost all credibility in her eyes.

"I want to spend the night with you. We'll only go as far as you're comfortable but..."

This.

Im so used to thinking in terms of plausible deniability that it backfired this time. Also, trying to convince her with that same frame was the attraction killer.

Ill keep this good stuff in mind - but then it was not an ASD issue?

Also, how would you reply to her vocal?

Thanks man for the feedback!

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

Tell her what you should have told her that night. It won't have the same impact as in person, but it's worth the hail mary, because she's on the verge of auto-rejection. Also she might just be in a place where she's looking for something serious, so her resistance to casual sex is sky high (doesn't make it impossible just really hard).

 

[gameboy]

Been thinking about it a bit Higher... what Hector said, basically.

It definitely wasn't ASD - she even said to you "one night only" i.e. she was expecting at least a one night stand.

A line like "we don't have to do anything" might work on a virgin college student that is hesistant to go to your room, but to a hot 37yo Latina with tattoos and a kid, it's just gonna sound ridiculous. Her saying that her last date was a year ago sounds like a lie to protect her reputation... she is probably not counting the 2 or 3 FBs she calls when she's horny, lol (this is, of course, just speculation. But in my experience, attractive girls are never really completely single, even though they might officially be.)

So to sum it up: She gave you a bit of token resistance, but I'm pretty sure she wanted you to just smash right through it. Should have just kept kissing, excalating, and if she doesn't want to take you home just find some other place to bang her.

 

[Higher]

It definitely wasn't ASD - she even said to you "one night only" i.e. she was expecting at least a one night stand

She might have been open to it had i played it right.

I guess what POB meant was, had i handled ASD preemptively, i wouldnt have run into this issue in the first place.

Her saying that her last date was a year ago sounds like a lie to protect her reputation... she is probably not counting the 2 or 3 FBs she calls when she's horny, lol

Yeah, didnt immediately think of this.

For sure she has some amigos. Usually when a girl tells me shes not dating much i like to tell her, so you never make love? Or do you have a friend or so?

I like teasing like this because 1) it shows that im not judgemental; 2) it shows that i actually consider this behavior very normal; 3) it suggests i might have some female friends myself; 4) i lightly shame her, ie. how come you never make love, are you some kind of weirdo? So shes got to sorta defend herself and tell me the truth; and 5) "make love" suggests something more romantic than "have sex", which is way more congruent to my personality.

I hinted at this when she told me about kissing guys on the first date. However i didnt play it all the way. I suspect i was sure i had it in the bag. Hubris.

 

[gameboy]

She might have been open to it had i played it right.

I guess what POB meant was, had i handled ASD preemptively, i wouldnt have run into this issue in the first place.

Hmm how do you handle it preemptively?

Yeah, didnt immediately think of this.

For sure she has some amigos. Usually when a girl tells me shes not dating much i like to tell her, so you never make love? Or do you have a friend or so?

I like teasing like this because 1) it shows that im not judgemental; 2) it shows that i actually consider this behavior very normal; 3) it suggests i might have some female friends myself; 4) i lightly shame her, ie. how come you never make love, are you some kind of weirdo? So shes got to sorta defend herself and tell me the truth; and 5) "make love" suggests something more romantic than "have sex", which is way more congruent to my personality.

That sounds good, I'll try it out myself when i get a chance!

I hinted at this when she told me about kissing guys on the first date. However i didnt play it all the way. I suspect i was sure i had it in the bag. Hubris.

Her saying she doesn't kiss on a first date is completely incongruent with what she said later about " thing for one night". So pretty sure it's BS as well. Maybe she did think you were a boyriend candidate?

 

[POB]

Hmm how do you handle it preemptively?

By showing you are a non-judgemental man who "gets" that women are horny, but on the losing end if word gets out she had sex fast with a stranger.
Number of ways you can do it, but as I said before you do it right from the get go.
Then you can even be a little romantic and it won't make a difference.

 

[DarkJedi]

Im so used to thinking in terms of plausible deniability that it backfired this time. Also, trying to convince her with that same frame was the attraction killer.

This got me thinking. I think plausible deniability works as long as you don't use it to actively hide your intentions. Like when you've kept the vibe ambiguous from the start but with sexual tension, and keep it like that till you bring her home. Or when both of you know its going down but you're just saying it to make it less explicit. But in your case you showed your cards by making out and being physical and then basically denying that frame when you said you just wanna chill with music. Incongruent

 

[POB]

Gotta set those frames ASAP:
- women like sex
- there's nothing wrong with that
- our fucked up society treats them with a double standard that doesn't allow them to express their natural sexuality
- although you are a man, you "get it"
- you will allow her to fully express her desires with you without judgement
- after sex, you will keep your mouth shut and protect her reputation at all costs

 

[Rakehell]

I don’t agree with the ASD angle. She’s been around the block, she knows how these things go. If it were solely Asd, she would’ve bit on his plausibly deniable excuse, because he gave her his expectations of her coming back home with him.

She also experienced his intent throughout, can’t really say he’s acting like a boyfriend, when they’re making out and all over eachother on the first date.

To add on to these points he’s a tourist in her city.

I honestly don’t feel as though you did much wrong on paper.

But you lost it on the invite back.

Shes like, nah i know how these things go, so i typically dont wanna do it, thats probably why im still single.

Here I would’ve asked “and that’s what you want really?” if she says some version of yes ask her “why?”.

Then maybe smirk it off, give it some seconds, then reverse sell her on why she doesn’t want to cut the good vibes you guys have short by her leaving.

Her reasoning could be any number of things so how you go about it depends on her answer. But the main point is it’s safe to assume she has a pretty mundane life and it’s clear that you all like spending time with eachother. Ask what she planned on doing if not kicking it back with you at yours?

Will be absolutely impossible for her to drum up an answer that sounds more appetizing than her back at your place.

Then lead, don’t ask. “Woww sounds so fun (tongue in cheek)”

Give it some seconds.

“Listen it’s getting late, let’s get out of here, I have x thing back at mine ( whatever selling point you may have), if there comes a point you want to leave while we’re there, I can’t promise I won’t be kind of sad but I can promise I got you with a ride back to your place. Let’s go”

Then gather yourself and motion her like you’re leaving.

 

[Freakester]

Nevermind I hadn't read the last para lol. My bad.

Rakhel is on point.
That was basically an objection you had to overcome

Would it have been possible to flip the script on the rebuff to your invitation?
"Isnt that what you want though?"

 

[Higher]

Ask what she planned on doing if not kicking it back with you at yours?

Will be absolutely impossible for her to drum up an answer that sounds more appetizing than her back at your place.

Would it have been possible to flip the script on the rebuff to your invitation?
"Isnt that what you want though?"

Interesting, never thought of this.

 

[Will_V]

Yeah, like everyone said, you just had to persist more while staying chill.

Older women can trip you up because there is a real difference in the way that they perceive you and your intentions. Younger girls are much more unconscious of the reality of what men want, because they have less experience, and have much more idealized concepts of the difference between casual sex and relationships. So they are much more willing to accept you being hesitant or faltering and assume that you or serendipity still knows what's going on.

For an older woman, she's usually been forced to deal with the task of choosing a man for the long haul, under time pressure. This makes her become very intentional in her behavior and starkly aware of realities about dating and relationships she never had to face before, and that's the point where she often gets bitter and cynical if she ends up failing for too long.

After a time, especially after a divorce or kids, she simply comes to accept the truth about things. These kind of women are pretty straightforward, if they want to bang they typically just need some good conversation, maybe a wine, and an invitation from a guy who looks like he's done this plenty of times before. And if they don't want what you want, they'll make it pretty clear (as she has here). And since they have all this experience and understanding of things, they won't put up with a dude who looks like he isn't sure what he's doing, unless they have a special thing for innocent young guys.

The best approach for these women is to be warm, confident and very chill, and just proceed smoothly being aware that she probably knows exactly what you're thinking every step of the way. So that means you want to be careful not to lay anything on too thick.

In this case, I think she already sensed you were unconfident or inexperienced in some way, and she threw you a test while being fully aware of what she was doing, to see how you would respond. And you backing off wasn't what she was looking for.

Again, this is typically not what a much younger girl will do, so that's why you have to quickly understand the lay of the land and adjust accordingly.

 

[Higher]

you backing off wasn't what she was looking for

Yeah, i got defensive instead of being playful. Classic attraction killer.

Theres no point in reacting like i did - tho i didnt have a clear idea on how to properly respond to her objection.

Now i do.

This will hopefully be a lesson on humbleness too, since i thought i got her already.

Man, your deep explanations of human psychology are always a gold mine, thanks for the insights!

 

[gameboy]

I was just thinking the same. @Will_V , your posts are pure gold!