Man-woman power dynamics... can the roles be reversed?

Yeti

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Hey guys. I'm a long time reader of the site and a lurker on the forums, but I recently decided to make an account and officially join the community here.

Anyway, I have a question that I've been mulling over for the past few weeks that I wanted to put out there for you guys to chew on and maybe help me figure out. I personally have too limited of an experience pool to come up with a definitive answer.

So, my understanding is that when a man does his job correctly in a relationship, or any seduction really, he positions himself as the leader of the relationship. He stands at the "helm", so to speak, making the hard decisions, guiding the relationship through harsh seas, and taking care of his counterpart, and eventually his children as well. He carries the risks and pressures of decisionmaking, as well as the expectations of his counterpart to do his job with skill and competence. But he also has the freedom to choose where the relationship goes, and receives the bulk of the credit for the success of a relationship.

The woman, on the other hand, is a supporter. She is no less important, of course - a leader is not a leader if he has no one to lead- and she has responsibilities and benefits in a relationship just as the man does. But her role is nonetheless a different one. Both the man and the woman cannot be calling the shots. Her job centers around supporting the man in his role, much like a support beam holding up a roof. The roof and the support beam need each other, but they don't do the same job. Traditionally, her supporting role involves such things like cooking and cleaning, taking care of the children, and doing domestic tasks. (I think it can be different, depending on the man and the woman. If the woman hates cleaning, for instance, and the man recognizes this and takes care of the cleaning by either delegating it to the children, hiring someone to do it, or even doing it himself when needed, the leader-supporter system doesn't just crumble - it adapts. The woman may support the man in other ways, and the man is still taking care of the woman by meeting her needs. As long as the man doesn't do it from a place of supplication, his role is still cemented. It all depends on the couple and how they complement one another - but I digress.)

Amidst all of the feminist and egalitarian rhetoric flying around these days, I began to wonder if these roles are actually biologically suited to the genders we have assigned them to. Obviously, the leader-supporter system speaks for itself. Anyone who has seen it can attest to it's merit. My question is (finally): Is the role of leader best filled by a man? And is the role of supporter best filled by a woman? I would never want to be in a relationship where the woman is in charge, because... well, fuck that, right? But for a dominant woman and a less dominant man, could the relationship hypothetically work? Or in homosexual relationships where the roles aren't so clear cut based on gender?

My hunch is that, as long as the roles are clear, agreed upon, and properly fulfilled, that the relationship can work no matter what gender fulfills each role. But I couldn't find any good studies to back this up, and I don't have enough life or relationship experience to back up my prediction. So, what do you guys think?
 

Seppuku

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Hey Yeti,

welcome to the boards!
Yeti said:
But for a dominant woman and a less dominant man, could the relationship hypothetically work?

The answer is NO! That cannot work long term.

No matter how dominant she is, deep inside the women has a primal need to submit to a strong man's will. This need can never be satisfied if she's with a less dominant man. It's only a matter of time until she loses attraction for him. They may stay together for some time because of a marriage, or kids, or other reasons, but sooner or later she will dump her guy for a stronger man. And if circumstances make it impossible for her to leave, this will be a very unhappy relationship as she will grow unsatisfied.

It is one of women's paradoxes that, on one hand she deeply needs a man to dominate her, but on the other hand her survival instincts compel her to get the man under control, through various manipulative means (that she's most of the time unaware of).

Cheers,
Seppuku
 

Yeti

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Seppuku,

Seppuku said:
welcome to the boards!
Thanks! Glad I finally joined.

Seppuku said:
The answer is NO! That cannot work long term.

No matter how dominant she is, deep inside the women has a primal need to submit to a strong man's will. This need can never be satisfied if she's with a less dominant man. It's only a matter of time until she loses attraction for him. They may stay together for some time because of a marriage, or kids, or other reasons, but sooner or later she will dump her guy for a stronger man. And if circumstances make it impossible for her to leave, this will be a very unhappy relationship as she will grow unsatisfied.

Just playing devil's advocate here - what about lesbian relationships? If all women feel this primal need to submit, then it seems that at least one of them is doomed to unhappiness. Probably both. I can't prove that there are definitely some fulfilling lesbian relationships, but I shy away from generalizations like "all lesbian relationships are doomed to be unfulfilling because of the nature of women". It feels like too big of an assumption to make without scientific evidence to back it up. (Which, if you have, I'd be delighted to see it.) If all women feel this primal need to submit to a man specifically, then... why are there lesbians who engage in long term relationships? Surely they aren't all just dying on the inside.

And, do you think the reverse is true for men? Do we all have an innate need to dominate? If that's true, then we run into the reverse situation of the lesbian conundrum. Are long term gay couples doomed to be unhappy for one, or probably both, of the participants? That, too feels like a stretch.

If you believe that the need to dominate does not exist innately in all men, but that only the need for submission is present in all females, then it would allow for the possibility of fulfilling gay relationships and fulfilling heterosexual relationships, but not lesbian ones. This view is once again based on some pretty big assumptions.

And finally, we consider this: Men do not have and innate need to dominate. Women do not have an innate need to submit. That would allow homosexual relationships to be fulfilling, as one would expect them to be at least some of the time (otherwise why would people engage in them?), but it would also seem to allow for the possibility of a heterosexual relationship in which the woman is dominant and the man is submissive. This view assumes that men and women will vary in their natures. I would say that this assumption is a safer one than putting genders in a box. The world at large seems to exist in shades of gray, after all. I wouldn't expect this area of life to be any different.

However, any view that you take necessitates that one make assumptions, and we won't know for sure until the matter is given some serious scientific scrutiny.


Again, this is just for the sake of argument. I don't really have a cemented idea one way or the other yet. I see the benefit of assuming this primal need in the women in my life, whether it is there or not, but I still find this subject incredibly interesting to explore.

Yeti
 

ProblemSolving

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Yeti said:
But for a dominant woman and a less dominant man, could the relationship hypothetically work?

It depends on how you define "work". I believe Chase has posted studies on relationships where the woman is dominant tend to be more stable, but it depends on how you define stable. I assume the studies are referring to less drama or fighting, but at the same time I would bet money that sex would also be very scarce. In these situations, the woman usually loses attraction for the man who plays a more submissive feminine role, and cheats on him with more masculine men.

I used to think that dominant women ended of up with REALLY dominant men in long term relationships, but in fact, it's the opposite. Dominant women end up with more supplicant men in long term relationships. Relationships with two dominant personalities are VERY short lived, since neither party wants to give up control. Relationships with two submissive personalities are also very short lived, since neither party wants to take control.

Relationships with a dominant man and supplicant female may not be as "stable" as the reverse, but at least both parties will continue to be sexually attracted to each other because both of them are behaving within their gender roles. A dominant man probably won't make the most "stable" relationship, but he continues to be sexually attractive. Whereas, a supplicant man won't be sexually attractive, but the relationship will have less drama/fighting.
 

JimmyB

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what about lesbian relationships? If all women feel this primal need to submit, then it seems that at least one of them is doomed to unhappiness.
This made me think. My take on it, is that in homosexual relationships you have one dominant partner and one submissive. Everyone falls somewhere different on the dominant/submissive scale with some women being more dominant and some men being more submissive. On average, I would say men are more suited for being dominant while women are submissive. I'd guess that homosexual relationships can be long-lasting when you have a more-dominant-than-average woman with a more-submissive-than-average woman. Like ProblemSolving said, relationships with two similar personality types fizzle out because you need a leader and a follower.


My hunch is that, as long as the roles are clear, agreed upon, and properly fulfilled, that the relationship can work no matter what gender fulfills each role.
I like your thought process here. Theoretically, it seems possible. The main problem with this is the society we live in. Let's assume we're talking about in the US. It is a pervasive cultural norm that men lead in relationships and women follow. Masculinity is a valued attribute among all men (including most homosexual men). So if in this hypothetical relationship, the roles are clear that the woman is the leader and maintains that position, the man is the follower and maintains that position. For a man to voluntarily submit himself to being a follower, without contest, would be difficult because you would encounter scenarios in everyday life where these roles are NOT clear to most people. Many doubts would be raised. The woman would face these same dilemmas. "So you just boss him around? What type of man is that?" women might say. At first it might be a power trip for her, because she has this guy she can boss around. But then eventually she will get in scenarios where it would greatly benefit her to have a strong man around. Some one to fend off potential threats - thieves, scammers, creeps, etc. Even a dominant woman is likely to be much weaker than most men - genetically men are much bigger. This seems to be an obvious fact, but to feminists they may try to argue we are all the same biologically (we aren't). And so this woman would be very hard pressed to find a strong man that would wait on her and meet her needs without being in a relationship with her. If she wants a strong man around, she has to commit to one in a relationship.

Another facet to consider is WHY long-lasting relationships come about. They occur because it is a mutually beneficial scenario. A man wants a woman around to help cook, support him, etc., and in exchange for that support he provides her with security and strength, etc. Eventually a lot of men don't want to have to spend time and money on meeting new women and so opt for leading a relationship with one woman. As he continues to lead, she continues to follow. She benefits from his strength while he benefits from her nurturing and kindness. You can see how this is beneficial for both parties. Yet with these strong men, a relationship would not occur unless the woman is submissive. Otherwise, the man would just go on without her or find a more submissive woman who will follow him. Finding a strong, dominant man that is willing to support her long term is not easy to come by, so the only way for her to lock one down is to agree to a long-lasting relationship.
Meanwhile, weak boys are very prevalent. Look at any 20-year-old and I'm sure they would be very submissive to an older woman. The same goes for much older adult males. A woman could find one of these and lure him around with hints of sex or flirt with him and get him to assist her. She could even lead a relationship and keep this guy around to help her. But she really has no need for it to be long-term or committed. This guy is easily replaceable. Bluntly telling him she runs the household? Unlikely for that to hold up because of the society we live in. If she tried to run things under the table while the guy thinks he's really in charge, they would eventually run into an impass where they agree he's in charge or she tries to explain he's not in charge There is not really a scenario in which females would need a committed relationship with a submissive male. Really, women don't need a father to raise a child - often they have a family and friends who can help. Eventually the female will become restless because she can get just as much or probably more value from her male orbiters than from having one submissive male and she will move on to the next. On the other hand, a man does not need a relationship with a woman either. I only think a long-lasting relationship will endure when you have a strong man and a nurturing, supportive woman. We see many relationships that exist for periods of time, but most do not work out. So I'd say the less dominant the man and the less submissive the woman, the less likely the relationship is to endure because there isn't much benefit being harnessed by having a relationship. The man needs to be better than most other men she has access to (at something) and the woman has to be better (at something) than most other women the man has access to.
Is the role of leader best filled by a man? And is the role of supporter best filled by a woman?
What this comes down to is that if a man reaches his full potential, he's going to be a better leader, yes. If a woman reaches her full potential (which biologically involves raising and nurturing healthy children) then yes she's going to be a better supporter. I think when you have these woman-dominant, men-submissive relationships, it's only temporary because if the man were to improve himself over the course of time, he would surpass the woman in terms of capability and tip the scale out of balance.
 

Drck

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"for a dominant woman and a less dominant man, could the relationship hypothetically work"
>>>> The relationship could work, and some are like that. But you don't want that kind of relationship, go with what seppuku said.

Should you end up in such relationship, you as a male have low value. No value, you are only perceived just as a provider. You are very easily replaceable, she can paint your balls blue any times she wants, and all you can say is thank you and smile. She can be only happy with a guy who she perceives as a higher value than herself and she constantly seek such guy even subconsciously...

On the other hand, if she is very dominant (towards all guys), she might have quite hard time finding a good match. The reason is that most masculine guys don't want dominant woman, they are seeking more feminine one. So the more dominant she is the lesser chances she has to find a good match. In other words, she is screwing herself by attempting to act like a man...
 

ResentMasculinity

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Seppuku said:
Hey Yeti,

welcome to the boards!
Yeti said:
But for a dominant woman and a less dominant man, could the relationship hypothetically work?

The answer is NO! That cannot work long term.

No matter how dominant she is, deep inside the women has a primal need to submit to a strong man's will. This need can never be satisfied if she's with a less dominant man. It's only a matter of time until she loses attraction for him. They may stay together for some time because of a marriage, or kids, or other reasons, but sooner or later she will dump her guy for a stronger man. And if circumstances make it impossible for her to leave, this will be a very unhappy relationship as she will grow unsatisfied.

It is one of women's paradoxes that, on one hand she deeply needs a man to dominate her, but on the other hand her survival instincts compel her to get the man under control, through various manipulative means (that she's most of the time unaware of).

Cheers,
Seppuku

I heard that was the case with Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie
 

trashKENNUT

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Nope.................

I work with many female bosses in the past. Let's not explain it further the awkwardness.

Zac
 

lostnumber

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This is a point where I often find myself in disagreement with the GC community. I happen to believe that the OPs hunch is completely correct, and that relationships can work fine with either gender in the drivers seat.

I know multiple relationships where the girl wears the pants to a certain extent, and they seem to work just fine. I would never want that for myself, being a strong pants-wearing man like I am, but I recognize it as valid.

Evolutionarily speaking there is a clear reason for the stereotypical gender divide between man and woman. I would argue, however, that while a lot of our behavior does date back to primal instincts from thousands of years ago, a lot of it also does not.

Any man who never has sex with a woman cannot produce offspring, so from a biological imperative standpoint being gay makes very little sense (and if you have a study refuting this I would love to see it). Yet lots of people are gay and have happy productive lives and relationships.

So, while I agree that their is a historical foundation for "Dominant man, submissive female," and I agree that this is the most common archetype, I dont think it is the only one.

Good Thread
 

Fuck This

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It is interesting that my woman makes it clear she wants to be supportive saying things like: "I like taking care of my man", and giving positive feedback "you are so funny/so good looking/so talented/ so sexy etc. etc." and wants to be dominated in bed...

But talks about her career and how she is "an alpha female there", and talks about her dog and what a Beta he is. She see's the power balance so it is important that I maintain a strong frame.

Then I watch her with her kids and she doesn't have the Alpha Approach with them and has to negotiate chores and cleaning until she gets upset and raises her voice. She thinks I'm a little too authoritative with my kids, and she is probably right.

So far my approach has been, when I'm going to do something nice for her, tell her that is what I'm going to do before she can ask or hint. When I look for her guidance on something , I consult with her like two generals discussing battle strategy.
 
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