I'm unsure about the morality of my actions.

[RAFox]

If this post seems whiny or otherwise inappropriate, please do remove it.

That said, I've arrived at a point where my tactics have become morally questionable, and my perception of right and wrong has become sort of blurred.

I used to use manipulation to make good friendships, and keep them. Everything I learned, I applied to my friends. This mighy sound silly, but some of them couldn't last a week without seeing me, or their mood would only visibly improve when I was around, telling me over and over how I was their best friend in the world.
I could change their mood from downright depressed to bursting with joy in 10 minutes. I used it to manage the emotions of the people around me.

That's when I started overdoing it. I study people's patterns, reactions, what they like and don't, essentially, what makes them tick. Then I use that to my advantage.
If them being happy is a requirement to staying beneficial to me, I'll change their mood. Or vice versa, I'll make them feel like utter crap, and they'll blame themselves.
When they aren't thinking about doing something that is useful to me, I use phrasing, tonality and other things to make them do it. And they are none the wiser.

Chase once mentioned "the manipulator" In one of his articles about arguments, and what he wrote on there really was the case for me. I'll use whatever means necessary to change someone's mind, if it benefits me.

At this point, it's become somewhat subconscious. I don't know whether I should quit immediately and recondition myself, or just dial it down a little, since seduction also relies on manipulation. I've just started feeling bad about it, even though it gets me my results.

So in conclusion, what started as a means to make friends has led to me manipulating everyone in my vicinity.

If you got something you'd like to share, please do. I just wanted to write this down somewhere.

Cheers,
RAFox

 

[Mr.Rob]

So I'm not an expert in manipulation by any means but one quote you wrote stuck out to me.

seduction also relies on manipulation.

I don't agree. I've probably pulled a girl too fast or told her something that wasn't a full truth to get her in bed with me that in the end made her feel like I manipulated her. But I think that 90% of the women I've taken to bed would give me a good review and tell that they wanted to go to bed with me.

Manipulation is getting people to do things that they don't want to actually do but you talk them into it or coerce them into doing it anyway, thereby hurting the other party. Seduction is inspiring emotions in people to A) sell them on you (attract) and B) inspire them to do the thing they already want to do deep down anyway (sleep with an attractive man).

Sorry to hear you've taken the manipulation too far. Brave of you to assess that you might need to change your ways a bit.

Here is my question... What is the long term net result of your behavior on these relationships? How healthy are the relationships you foster 6-12 months down the road? Are the people that you "manipulate" people you're ultra excited to be friends with (do they bring high levels of value to your life)?

I have a hard time imagining high caliber people wanting to be friends long term if you're truly manipulating them... unless your just that slick ;o.

Wish I could point you in a better direction.

 

[trashKENNUT]

Rafox,

It's nothing personal. That's the narrative of wealthiest/Scandinavian/end of cycle civilizations.....

You need to understand that too.

But are this friends "high value" or "value" per se? Not to be offensive. It's a genuine question which i want to elaborate after your answer.

Zac

 

[RAFox]

Mr. Rob, Zac,

I personally classify intentionally invoking thoughts and feelings in someone else, saying the right things, studying how to do the right things to get what you (or both of you) want as manipulation.

As for your question, they are all kinds of people, from amateur dj's to artists to elite guys who at the top of their class. If I had to give a comparison, it would be being friends with the richest, but lonely kid in town, only to play with his console.

A common trait they all tend to have, meaning the people I can coerce the most, is some sort of psychological flaw, or a vulnerability, where they usually dislike comapany, think nobody gets them, think of themselves more highly, and deeply long for someone on the same wavelength as themselves.

RAFox

 

[Drck]

It is all relative, including 'morals'...

You want to get girls... so you know that if you are a loner you will have hard time. You go out then, learn to be social, make some friends using manipulation as you describe... You are not really making friends for the sake of friendship, but because you want to appear social, friendly, popular... Is it malicious manipulation? Probably not, your intentions are not to hurt anyone, everybody can benefit from the friendships

On the other hand, if you make some retirees invest into your great business their monthly income, and you disapper with all their money, your intentions are probably not so good, you are hurting others who believe you....

How about morals? Mabye you believe in goodness because you go to church. Maybe not, maybe you believe that this world is all garbage and it doesn't really matter what you do... Or, maybe you believe in karma or other things...

Personally I tent to believe in karma, sort of do unto others as you would have them do unto you, or do good and good shall return. At least eventually, that's what I believe. Would you like to be manipulated by others the same way you manipulate them? If it's not a big deal, keep going. If it is the other way you'd probably want to reconsider because sooner or later you will get comfortable in your manipulation, and then somebody will beat you in your own game, he will overmanipulate you...

Also check out dark triad machiavellianism, manipulation is one of the traits...

 

[RAFox]

Drck,

"Would you like to be manipulated by others the same way you manipulate them? If it's not a big deal, keep going."

This part really helped. The outcome of my manipulations are almost always positive for all parties. Everyone has a good time. I never use it against people who did nothing wrong.
Your statement really helped me clear this up. Guess I really just needed another person's perspective. Thanks a lot.

RAFox

Cheers

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

As long as you don't mislead, you're fine. People will build their own expectations and if you don't meet them, they'll consider you "bad."

If a girl convinces herself that you're only with her, then she finds out you've been fucking other people, and gets hurt - that's her bad.

Are there ways you can temper expectations? Sure, and you can generate positive experiences in people that they will often repay (i.e., karma) and you can avoid guilt but not doing anything that might generate guilt (i.e., karma). That's literally what the Buddha preached.

Don't want to ever feel guilt? Never do anything that might cause guilt.

But if you want to succeed in the material world? Yeah, nice guys don't succeed.

hector

 

[Bboy100]

Its a personal decision dude. Ultimtely...is manipulating people getting you what you want out of life ( I don't just mean materially. I mean socially, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, physically. All aspects of your life). If so, there's really no reason for you to stop. But since you're asking this question, I suspect you're trading one off for the other.

For example, you say you can make a lot of friends this way. So it sounds like you're doing better socially by manipulating people. But perhaps you're feeling guilty for doing it. So you're doing worse emotionally. Or maybe, you feel disconnected and isolated from everyone because all of your interactions are manipulative. So there's no one who knows, empathizes nor understands your true self. So in this case, you might be suffering not just emotionally, but also spiritually, psychologically, and perhaps even physically.

Those are just examples. I don't know what your real situation is. But whatever the case...ask yourself this: Is it worth it? If so, then just keep on trucking. If not, then you need to make some changes.

Either way, no one knows the answer to this question other than you. Because you're the only one who understands the effect manipulating people is having on you.

 

[Snazzy]

who cares? as long as you were giving them the truth it was their choice. you want to have a set of principles you won't break, and stick to them because women will be turned on by your consistency and conviction. it's play or be played out here man.

 

[Greco]

Or vice versa, I'll make them feel like utter crap, and they'll blame themselves.
When they aren't thinking about doing something that is useful to me, I use phrasing, tonality and other things to make them do it

Dude...that sounds a lot like psychic vampirism :
https://www.girlschase.com/content/protecting-yourself-psychic-vampires-and-not-turning-either.

I won't say that you should not do it, but think of it like magic : there is Dumbledore and Voldermort. You can use your powers to bring misery to others for your benefit OR you can use emotional contagion, inspire and benefit others and yourself.

That said, If I think someone is a vampire, I'll close myself to him and won't trust him.

Also, the guys you manipulate, probably are close to you value-wise, or maybe lower that's why you relate to them so good. It's like you have a group of your "minions" that you handle and manipulate. The happy emotions you provide for them, it seems that they don't come from a warm place from your heart, but it's just another tool to handle them. We all do it, but it comes a time where you sit and decide what kind of man you want to be.

I really doubt that if you tried to pull off this shit with guys like Chase or Ricardus, you would have so much success. I've seen how Chase debates, comebacks and see through techniques and I've got to say that he is fierce and elegant simutaneously...and I bet Ricardus has similar flair and finesse.

So I guess, you play too low and safe and you should start searching for higher value people, to send you to school again and learn. Even If you keep using dark power instead of light, guys like Chase probably won't trust you but there are Chase-y and Ricardus-y guys falling on the manipulating side of the spectrum and you will fit right in..!


It's a good thing that you realise this, you have a chance to improve..practicing "γνωθι σαυτον" is critical to improve.

That said, you may be an anti-social, narcissistic dick, that made that post to complain (vampires are complainers) waiting for other members to give him advice, and when that happens you will attempt to steer the conversation in order for all of us to conclude that you're just too "awesome" and so better than others. Like I said, a dick


Hope I helped.
Cheers.
-John