Doesn't trust me.. won't let me take control/oral...

[girlsfollow]

So just had second sex session with this odd yet sexy girl:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2371

Summary: doesn't feel close enough/trust me enough to give me oral(or let me give it)+ won't let me dominate, how overcome?

Just like the first time she refused to kiss me (actually this time she was even more negative about me kissing her - wouldn't let me go near her mouth)

So this girl has done some crazy stuff in her time but she won't kiss me - I suppose it might be like prostitutes apparently refuse to do - they have detached emotions from sex - hence no kissing?

So this girl I again had a MASSIVE amount of resistance: She told me she didn't want sex, that she has no sexual or romantic interest in me and acts like I physically repel her when I touch her (despite on our first date her pursuing me and attacking me for a passionate kiss - ex only broke up with her 1 month ago, says she is still emotionally involved). I pushed through resistance to finally get her clothes off and inside her - she begins by acting totally disinterested as if she doesn't want it - then she cums really hard and trys to hide it from me (I thought I'd hurt her - asked her if she was ok! LOL). I know this because she told me after it was intense and she tried to hide it from me to stop me from getting any satisfaction from knowing!

Then I tried getting up and putting it in her face and she freaked out "I'm not sucking yours!" so I just carry on going till she's really wet - I try again - same response and this time she gets up to leave!

She says its because she doesn't feel close enough to me to do something so personal...says she always starts with valilla sex and only opens up to more crazy stuff when she feels closer (eg also went to massage her ass while I was inside her - immediate cold response- maybe wait till she's cumming next time?)

But I've spent 30hours + with this girl talking to her about her and deep diving (although she does try to resist the deep dives).

How can I make the sex better - get her to let me take the lead (and not have so much stone cold resistance) let me dominate and do the naughty things she's done with her previous bf????

 

[Ross]

girlsfollow,

Summary: doesn't feel close enough/trust me enough to give me oral(or let me give it)+ won't let me dominate, how overcome?

Yeah - though to get things going when they are resisting everything. I know you've deep dived about her sexual past, but all she really provided was facts, such as she has done a threesome with guys, etc. You need to get down into the feelings of things. How did she feel about being so promiscuous? Did her parents demean her because she was sexually active? Remember, don't ask these exact questions. Simply follow a discourse where you arrive at her revealing something behind why she acts the way she does in regards to sex, and try to do it when you guys are just chatting around.

She says its because she doesn't feel close enough to me to do something so personal...says she always starts with valilla sex and only opens up to more crazy stuff when she feels closer (eg also went to massage her ass while I was inside her - immediate cold response- maybe wait till she's cumming next time?)

I understand most of us say, "Sleep with her as fast as possible!" But there are a few problems if you go too fast. We usually tell this to beginners who need to get the mindset of "move faster." However, there comes a time where you move too fast and the sex falters because of it. There is an important part to escalation that is needed once you are able to sleep with them quickly; sexual tension.

Try to implore sexual tension into your interactions with her. Never outright go for a kiss, touching her, or anything. Remember to still be warm and sexy; just don't actually initiate anything unless she starts to reciprocate warmth and sexiness. Then, begin with things such as kissing her body (she doesn't want you to kiss her on the mouth? Don't try for it, that's more for relationships which she should be chasing after).

Summary

- Deep dive more into feelings than facts.
- Dominating women isn't about going for things and wondering if she'll do it; it's about knowing she'll do it and knowing she wants to do it.
- Implore sexual tension into things; let her chase the kiss while you get regular sex.

Try those things from a top-down approach. First deep dive into feelings (resistance is normal, and a good thing), then understand how to do things you know she'll like, then use sexual tension to keep her dominated.

 

[girlsfollow]

Yeah - though to get things going when they are resisting everything. I know you've deep dived about her sexual past, but all she really provided was facts, such as she has done a threesome with guys, etc. You need to get down into the feelings of things. How did she feel about being so promiscuous? Did her parents demean her because she was sexually active? Remember, don't ask these exact questions. Simply follow a discourse where you arrive at her revealing something behind why she acts the way she does in regards to sex, and try to do it when you guys are just chatting around.

she told me - she feels bad about it - considers that in her past - "I'm not like that any more, - I was stupid" Whic I don't really buy - I think its part of girls normal "I'm a princess" image of themselves. She even said that she would find it bad and wrong and disgusting if she was watching herself just having sex - it doesn't fit into her image - but I bet she would still love craziness..

I understand most of us say, "Sleep with her as fast as possible!" But there are a few problems if you go too fast. We usually tell this to beginners who need to get the mindset of "move faster." However, there comes a time where you move too fast and the sex falters because of it. There is an important part to escalation that is needed once you are able to sleep with them quickly; sexual tension.

Try to implore sexual tension into your interactions with her. Never outright go for a kiss, touching her, or anything. Remember to still be warm and sexy; just don't actually initiate anything unless she starts to reciprocate warmth and sexiness. Then, begin with things such as kissing her body (she doesn't want you to kiss her on the mouth? Don't try for it, that's more for relationships which she should be chasing after).

Summary

- Deep dive more into feelings than facts.
- Dominating women isn't about going for things and wondering if she'll do it; it's about knowing she'll do it and knowing she wants to do it.
- Implore sexual tension into things; let her chase the kiss while you get regular sex.

Try those things from a top-down approach. First deep dive into feelings (resistance is normal, and a good thing), then understand how to do things you know she'll like, then use sexual tension to keep her dominated.

YES! I've felt this, Last time when I was at her place and we didn't have sex I could feel it in the eye contact - it was really strong and intense - but then she killed it when I grabbed her and tried to give her a kiss. What I need to try is just kill all pursuit, I think I'll not go for a single kiss next time. Kino I think I;ll have to tone back A LOT too, I've toned it back already but she's still saying things like "You're all over me - strange for someone that's supposedly disappointed/cold about me being a bitch yesterday" - I think I missed out on getting her to chase here - I held back and didn't touch her for more than an hour but then when it came to the bed and I wanted to escalate obviously i couldnt really do that - Now that I think about it - I could have been alot more cold upto then though - hmmm - I'm going to have to start rationing the intimacy - ONLY GIVING WHAT I GET- and possibly should give less! I think this might get her wondering - but I think I'll need to do it gradually - if she notices and asks -= I'll just say I hink her coldness is maybe making me more cold

 

[Ross]

Almost forgot about a technique that would really help.

https://www.girlschase.com/content/tacti ... ting-girls

 

[girlsfollow]

Almost forgot about a technique that would really help.

https://www.girlschase.com/content/tacti ... ting-girls[/quote]
Of course the old push pull! - thanks for giving me a refresher on this - its really useful stuff!

I might try using it in text a little - interesting development is that she isn't texting me like she was before - she was texting me every day before quite a bit - sunday and monday nothing apart from when I initiated monday.....

 

[Chase]

GF-

My first thought on reading this was, "Why even bother with this girl? She has crazy issues... just throw her back into the pond and find someone else."

Anyway, barring that... most women can only invest emotionally in one person at a time. Saying she's "still emotionally involved" with her ex means she's almost certainly still chasing after him and probably still sleeping with him - it's quite common for people to break up, then continue to have sex. Sounds like this guy was in control, she wanted him more than he wanted her, he broke up with her, and she's now still in pursuit. He may have swapped her down to a friends-with-benefits position, but she's still trying to find a way to translate that back up into a relationship again. Chances are, he's getting her passion, and she's just using you to not feel totally helpless.

Personally, whenever I run into things like this, where the girl is hung up on her ex / probably still sleeping with him / is being frigid with me, I just drop kick her out of there and get away from her. All kinds of red flags there, and anyway, dating girls you catch on the rebound is always bad news.

From how she's been talking to you (e.g., telling you about "how she deals with people who don't text her"), it seems pretty clear that she doesn't value you very highly and sees you as someone who's there to serve a specific purpose for her (like, 'rebound guy who helps me establish my independence, or get back at my asshole boyfriend'). Probably not the kind of relationship you want to be in long for your own sanity.

Chase

 

[girlsfollow]

GF-

My first thought on reading this was, "Why even bother with this girl? She has crazy issues... just throw her back into the pond and find someone else."

Anyway, barring that... most women can only invest emotionally in one person at a time. Saying she's "still emotionally involved" with her ex means she's almost certainly still chasing after him and probably still sleeping with him - it's quite common for people to break up, then continue to have sex. Sounds like this guy was in control, she wanted him more than he wanted her, he broke up with her, and she's now still in pursuit. He may have swapped her down to a friends-with-benefits position, but she's still trying to find a way to translate that back up into a relationship again. Chances are, he's getting her passion, and she's just using you to not feel totally helpless.

Personally, whenever I run into things like this, where the girl is hung up on her ex / probably still sleeping with him / is being frigid with me, I just drop kick her out of there and get away from her. All kinds of red flags there, and anyway, dating girls you catch on the rebound is always bad news.

From how she's been talking to you (e.g., telling you about "how she deals with people who don't text her"), it seems pretty clear that she doesn't value you very highly and sees you as someone who's there to serve a specific purpose for her (like, 'rebound guy who helps me establish my independence, or get back at my asshole boyfriend'). Probably not the kind of relationship you want to be in long for your own sanity.

Chase

Good to hear your input here! I totally hear what you are saying, I was aware that she is not an ideal relationship material though - thats why I made a point of mentioning it.

In an ideal world I would drop kick her out and just walk out my door and find another girl- I plan to keep working on that as hard as ever however she does happen to be the first girl in over a year that I have had sex with that I would actually consider going out with - so do humour me when I ask how I can actually handle this - its a learning opportunity if anything. Nothing lost if I'm still devoting as much time to trying to find a other girls....

As we all know its best not to get into a relationship at first anyway - so actually I couldn't care less if she is still seeing him - although I'm sure she isn't - the BF is with his new dream girl that she is very jealous of... So that brings us back to my question - I know I can probably keep seeing her and eventually her defences will come down... how do I do this in a dominant way?

Been thinking
- dial back effort to almost 0
- be as ready to walk as her (she has now suggested we part ways because we argue too much a few times - I've just told her to stop being stupid till wnow)
- cut all kino
- let her chase for kino
- she's tried putting on the friend frame on me........what can I do?

 

[girlsfollow]

hmm

just coming back to this - I realise this is FAR from ideal - but surely if there are ways of getting girls to chase which currently have bf's then if they are broken up it should at least be possible! I also asked her about it and she said that she wouldn't want to get back together with him and doesnt want to go back there, but she did say he would almost certainly get back in contact with her and reopen things at some point.

Ive actually had a good talk with her and its all made more sense. Apparently the first time we met she wanted to have sex but we couldn't because of the period - then the second time she didn't want to have sex but I pushed so hard that she let me anyway - and now she feels like I've basically forced her to have sex and therefore can't trust me anymore!...

 

[Franco]

Hey gf,

I would take everything she says with a grain of salt. Remember, we don't really listen to what women say; we just listen to their actions.

As Chase mentioned, it seems like she at least wants to keep you around as a safety net. Knowing this, she is going to say whatever she needs to say to make that happen. Things such as:

...she wouldn't want to get back together with him and doesnt want to go back there, but she did say he would almost certainly get back in contact with her and reopen things at some point.

If you put yourself in her shoes, would she really want to tell you that she would get back together with her boyfriend if he came back to her? Of course not, right? You wouldn't stand for that (or at least you shouldn't stand for that). She's going to say what she needs to say in order to maintain control of the situation and what she wants out of it.

then the second time she didn't want to have sex but I pushed so hard that she let me anyway - and now she feels like I've basically forced her to have sex and therefore can't trust me anymore!...

This is obviously baloney. If she really didn't trust you anymore, then she would have gone completely cold on you. She's just using this as an excuse to maintain control of the situation. What's bothering you the most here is that you can't get what you want out of it at the moment, and you're trying to look for tactics to change her way of thinking. This isn't going to happen. As Chase mentioned, she obviously still has feelings for her ex-boyfriend, so I would take this entire relationship with a grain of salt and not expect much to come from it given the mental state that she's in.

Your mindset needs to be: "If something comes from it, and I get what I want, then that's great. If not, well I wasn't expecting anything to come from it anyway." The more pressure you put on her, the more she is going to resent it. Go with the flow and don't be too pushy (EDIT: in a logical, verbal way); that will give you the best chance of her opening up to you -- but don't count your blessings. If you feel like this is becoming too much of an emotional roller coaster for you, then you should take Chase's original advice and just drop this girl. She won't be worth it compared to all of the other women out there that you can have that are single and emotionally available.

- Franco

 

[girlsfollow]

If you put yourself in her shoes, would she really want to tell you that she would get back together with her boyfriend if he came back to her? Of course not, right? You wouldn't stand for that (or at least you shouldn't stand for that). She's going to say what she needs to say in order to maintain control of the situation and what she wants out of it.

This sounds exactly right...

This is obviously baloney. If she really didn't trust you anymore, then she would have gone completely cold on you. She's just using this as an excuse to maintain control of the situation. What's bothering you the most here is that you can't get what you want out of it at the moment, and you're trying to look for tactics to change her way of thinking. This isn't going to happen. As Chase mentioned, she obviously still has feelings for her ex-boyfriend, so I would take this entire relationship with a grain of salt and not expect much to come from it given the mental state that she's in.

I did say that I am still hitting all game as hard as I would be if she didnt exist - I am not getting involved at all - I was totally willing to walk on saturday - then she called me in the evening for an hour and we half made up she's upset still from last week when I apparently forced her to have sex (see the FR/LR - if shes letting me take her clothes off on my bed and she's free to leave this is a bit of a push!). When you say its not going to happen what you're saying is there is nothing I can actively do - I should just lean back and hang out with her while maintaining the sexual vibe.

Your mindset needs to be: "If something comes from it, and I get what I want, then that's great. If not, well I wasn't expecting anything to come from it anyway." The more pressure you put on her, the more she is going to resent it. Go with the flow and don't be too pushy (EDIT: in a logical, verbal way); that will give you the best chance of her opening up to you -- but don't count your blessings. If you feel like this is becoming too much of an emotional roller coaster for you, then you should take Chase's original advice and just drop this girl. She won't be worth it compared to all of the other women out there that you can have that are single and emotionally available.

Thats right - although its good to hear it reinforced again! What I'm wondering is how to get past all of this - So you're saying I should just hang out with her, not push for kino (since she's still awkward and resisting that) and just not push at all.. something might happen or probably not...

My main issue is if I hang out with her and dont have sex with her she will try and put me in the friend zone - how do I deal with this frame she's tried to throw on me a few times?

 

[Chase]

GF-

Here's another angle.

Let's say she legitimately likes you but is conflicted / unsure / is emotionally hung up on the ex.

You don't get her back by chasing after her.

Your only two real options are to have her over for sex and then:

1.) Gently but insistently persist, calmly and nonchalantly, until you get it, or

2.) Calmly tell her, "Jennifer, I really dig you, and I think you're incredibly awesome, and you're the first gal I've met in a long time that I've liked more than a one-night thing, but... if you're still hung up on this guy, and we can't really be intimate together, then this probably isn't the right time for us to be thinking about seeing each other." Then sadly ask her to leave: "I'm going to go to bed. You should probably head home."

#2 smacks her in the face with decision time: keep chasing after the ex who already broke up with her, or seriously throw herself into things with her new beau? Bear in mind of course that if she decides in your favor, you'll still need to treat the ex like "whatever," while pulling out all the stops to give her screaming, earth-shattering orgasms and scintillating levels of dominance and poise in the relationship so she can start sizing you up and seeing you as sexy.

Remember, her ex broke up with her, and now she's going crazy over him. It stands to reason you may get a similar reaction if you take a similar course of action (of course, you may also just free her up to chase down her guy full time - but even still, she may then come crawling back to you a few days later).

Chase

 

[Franco]

...what you're saying is there is nothing I can actively do - I should just lean back and hang out with her while maintaining the sexual vibe.

That sounds about right. And my advice was pretty much going to be this:

1.) Gently but insistently persist, calmly and nonchalantly, until you get it.

If you are doing things like rubbing her leg and kissing her neck, and then pulling back and just putting your arm around her while you watch a movie for awhile, then playing with her hair a bit and rubbing her hand, etc. etc., she'll likely get so turned on that you can just move things forward steadily. Just be prepared to take a step back here and there during the process... and then take two steps forward.

If the situation is bothering you too much though, I do like Chase's second suggestion:

2.) Calmly tell her, "Jennifer, I really dig you, and I think you're incredibly awesome, and you're the first gal I've met in a long time that I've liked more than a one-night thing, but... if you're still hung up on this guy, and we can't really be intimate together, then this probably isn't the right time for us to be thinking about seeing each other." Then sadly ask her to leave: "I'm going to go to bed. You should probably head home."

Right now, she's getting what she wants: an open door in case her boyfriend comes back and sexual male attention until that possibly happens. However, if she genuinely likes you and doesn't want to lose you, then forcing a decision here (in a smooth, calm way as Chase describes above) can be a good way to turn the tables. But keep in mind that something like this may not happen overnight. She might let you walk out on her, then go for another month hoping her boyfriend will come back, and when it hits her on the head that he isn't, she'll begin to chase you realizing she made a mistake.

Again, a lot of the above is speculation because she is the one in control. You want her, and she wants her boyfriend. But the above options I believe give you the best chance of winning her over.

- Franco

 

[girlsfollow]

Chase, Franco - this is quite an interesting case I think you would agree! Thanks for your input.

GF-

Here's another angle.

Let's say she legitimately likes you but is conflicted / unsure / is emotionally hung up on the ex.

You don't get her back by chasing after her.

Your only two real options are to have her over for sex and then:

1.) Gently but insistently persist, calmly and nonchalantly, until you get it, or

2.) Calmly tell her, "Jennifer, I really dig you, and I think you're incredibly awesome, and you're the first gal I've met in a long time that I've liked more than a one-night thing, but... if you're still hung up on this guy, and we can't really be intimate together, then this probably isn't the right time for us to be thinking about seeing each other." Then sadly ask her to leave: "I'm going to go to bed. You should probably head home."

#2 smacks her in the face with decision time: keep chasing after the ex who already broke up with her, or seriously throw herself into things with her new beau? Bear in mind of course that if she decides in your favor, you'll still need to treat the ex like "whatever," while pulling out all the stops to give her screaming, earth-shattering orgasms and scintillating levels of dominance and poise in the relationship so she can start sizing you up and seeing you as sexy.

Remember, her ex broke up with her, and now she's going crazy over him. It stands to reason you may get a similar reaction if you take a similar course of action (of course, you may also just free her up to chase down her guy full time - but even still, she may then come crawling back to you a few days later).

Chase

Chase, Its good to know that there isn't anything new I can actively do to help here really.

1. The problem is this is what I have done the last two times (after the first time she was really into me)! - didn't get anything back and she was talking and being all logical, general theme - "I don't want sex" "I'm not interested in you anymore after you didn't get back to my texts - it turns me off" (the first time - we had sex similar to below) and "I'm not attracted to you anymore after you broke my trust last time and basically forced me to have sex" (the second time). Then things went down like this:
-I escalated anyway,
-she got turned on (groin rub through jeans) I got her clothes off,
-she told me that she didn't want it but she would let me do what I wanted to see if I would go that far - odd
-she then told me that if we had sex she wouldn't ever want to come back to my place because she wouldn't trust me anymore
-then I leant back, I tried to resist but she was naked and her body was very clearly "ready" for it so I just went for it - she just let me escalate with no resistance
-she came hard but quietly - tried to hide it from me - then she suddenly wanted to try and make me finish so she started to make noises and pull me deeper - I didn't want to fall for the fake guilt act - maybe should have let her make me? - Didn't feel like giving her all the control for some reason...?
-after a bit she was in a bit of a huff - then she wanted to leave - she was furious that I had had sex with her!
-I managed to keep her there so I could make her some food and she thanked me and then told me she had orgasmed hard earlier but had tried to hide it. We left on quite good terms after this. After this her texting got colder. she refused my offer to have her come here and then offered:

I agreed to go to a gallery with her - thought it might be good to rebuild trust because I pushed too quickly...She was cold there too, the heat was still in the eye contact but I didn't feel like touching her - she made it feel awkward. We had a bit of an argument afterwards - I had said she was being cold after I had been nice. She went over not liking me again I said fine and we parted on bad terms... I sent her a "farewell" text - I wish you all the best etc a few hours later she called me I was busy then she called me again in the evening! She wanted to explain that she had only said she was not interested to get me to stop assuming she wanted to have sex with me (too many chase frames here maybe!) since she didn't trust me anymore and the past had made it awkward. We spoke for an hour on the phone and agreed to not text for a week and see if we could let things get back to normal again. I did say to help build trust I promised to not push things with her and have sex the next time she comes over...

So basically I'm not in contact this week - plan to wait until she gets in contact with me and then invite her over - I think the best thing would be to lean back big time and just let nervous tension build - I would normally watch a film because I feel like we've talked enough (15/20+ I think by now). Maybe trying gentle escalation if it feels right - and if she stops me halfway again - then going for your push for the decision?

FRANCO

The above deals with your first point.

Right now, she's getting what she wants: an open door in case her boyfriend comes back and sexual male attention until that possibly happens. However, if she genuinely likes you and doesn't want to lose you, then forcing a decision here (in a smooth, calm way as Chase describes above) can be a good way to turn the tables. But keep in mind that something like this may not happen overnight. She might let you walk out on her, then go for another month hoping her boyfriend will come back, and when it hits her on the head that he isn't, she'll begin to chase you realizing she made a mistake.

Again, a lot of the above is speculation because she is the one in control. You want her, and she wants her boyfriend. But the above options I believe give you the best chance of winning her over

. Yes this is right - its SO useful hearing an objective perspective to clarify thinking! If you put it this way - doesn't this make it seem like if I tried to escalate as you suggest that she would still very much be in control? I think I need to play escalation very differently - with making her be the main person chasing - but:
- she won't accept any chase frames (tells me to stop flattering myself) and
- she won't let me touch her

Its odd she was like this the first time we met as well - maybe it was the alcohol - after two drinks she got much more comfortable and I got into heavy kino - took her back and we were kissing etc - but since that night she has only kissed me once (during the first sex) - So its always me in pursuit! How can I turn this around -I think push pull might be the only thing I can do here to break through. I feel CHASES idea is a little too hard - especially after we've just had a week o more of no talking after a fall out over this very issue of sex.... what you think?: