Alek's "sex talk" VS deep dive - what's more effective outside night game

[lux7]

I was just reading a couple articles from Alek like the one on Fractionation.

While the first articles I had read from Alek didn't resonate with me -the approach of telling girls "I know you girls like sex" seemed childish- I got renewed respect for him after reading a bit more.

In the comments he goes against the very grain of what this website teaches as he says "avoid building rapport and emotional connections" if you're going for casual sex / quick pulls.

It got me thinking: though I never premeditatedly used sexual talk many of my quick lays hadn't built any verbal connection indeed (obviously one could say, by its very nature "quick" doesn't entail longer convo).
Some of the times it was mostly physical, some other times not even that: just capitalizing on underlying attraction / interest and moving towards home.

But what about a more typical "date" or during a day time approach?


IS SEX TALK TALK EFFECTIVE IN DATING AND DURING DAY?

The question is not if it can work, obviously it can: we all know everything can work, at least a few times and at least in some occasions.
The question is if can work as well as it does in a club/bar approach and if it is as effective as deep diving.

I have a few ideas but... What are your thoughts?

 

[Grand Pooba]

Lux, yeah it is effective but I think the setup and lead in is slightly different. I think in general you have to get her warmed up to you first during the day, and then head into it. But there's also direct sexual game that some guys on here do (Hector for instance) that's freakin awesome.

 

[lux7]

Lux, yeah it is effective but I think the setup and lead in is slightly different. I think in general you have to get her warmed up to you first during the day, and then head into it. But there's also direct sexual game that some guys on here do (Hector for instance) that's freakin awesome.

Well that's the devil in the details, I'm not just interested in "effective", I agree both can be.
I'm interested in which one is superior.

Something like, the exact same person with strong skills in both games:

• 
  Takes 100 women on a date (or meet them at supermarket), goes into well delivered "sex talk" ;
  
  Takes 100 women on a date (or meet them at supermarket), follow strong deep dive game (and chase frames etc.) ;

In which scenario you get laid the most?

I know, tough call answering that...

 

[Bboy100]

My response is a little bit biaas and not too well tested, so take it with a grain of salt:

I've tried sex talk several times. Admittedly, I wasn't very good at it, so that may very well be a part of what fucked me over. Regardless, it seems ineffective at best, and perhaps downright self-sabtoging at worse. I'm sure it does work for Alek. Just like the Mystery Method works for Mystery. But for most people, I doubt either of these strategies are effective.

Here's why I doubt "sex talk's" efficacy: it's not natural. There is no point in the mating sequence of humans were we go out of our way to talk about sex. If anything, it's usually strongly implied via nonverbals, but never outright talked about. This entire concept of "sex talk" and all other forms of directly talking about sex to spike attraction has been introduced by the PUA community.

I'm not saying talking about sex is bad, or that it should be avoided. If it naturally comes up in conversation, that's fine. I still doubt it will actually help. But it's unlikely to do too much harm. But if you go out of your way to talk about it, there's a much higher chance that it will come across as forced, which is likely to kill an otherwise good interaction. And like I said before...there's really no benefit to taking this risk because there's no real reward to it. Because as noted above, talking about sex is not part of human courtship.

Obviously, there must be something to it. Cause Alek isn't the only one who mentions sex talk. BUT, it does seem that sex talk is a PUA exclusive concept. And tbh, the PUAs came up with a lot of ideas which seemed good in their prime, but we now know are super flawed (e.g. The Mystery Method). I believe sex talk is another one of them. And I think most the success it brings is just confirmation-biaas. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that Alek would be able to lay most the girls he gets together with without using sex talk. Sex talk is not what gets him laid. His non-verbals and strong basics are.

But like I said, I have limited in-field testing of this concept, so it's very possible that I'm wrong here and I"m just KJing.

 

[HellAtlantic]

I completely agree with you bboy. One thing I actually do though, instead of bringing up sex talk which is hard (for me) to do or transition to, is if the girl says something "sexual" or "provocative" I will then take control of the convo by cutting her off mid sentence saying "whoa back up a second, what's that all about huh?" or something like that. I think you show sexual interest with touching, that's actually more worthwhile to get comfortable with than "oh jeez how am I gonna transition to ass-to-mouth topic with this girl, we're talking about cat videos right now!". So for me it's more "keep an ear out for sexual comments and don't hide from them - embrace them. In the meantime look for good times to put your hands on her and start closing the distance and inch closer to her personal space." But you're totally right about how unnatural it can come off. I will agree that some guys may just have that vibe they give off where they can fit it in anywhere, but you're correct again it's not likely transitioning to sex talk is what got them the lay.

 

[Mystique]

Just because you've tried sex talk and it didn't work doesn't mean it's not a reliable method. I'm sure if you're genuinely interested in it and you practice it, just like learning deep diving and sexual/chase framing, it'll eventually work well for you. I've always liked the idea of sex talk and decided that once I started getting laid a lot, I'll learn sex talk. And then Alek's podcast tripled my desire for it. I'm not gonna tell you what I think about sex talk or why I think it's effective because I'm a total noob. I don't have enough field experience to back up anything I say. Now what I'm going to do is tell you about my very close pal who uses what I believe to be sex talk. My friend is a normal guy who isn't into pick up and he gets laid. I don't consider him to be a natural due to some reasons I'm going to mention.
Right from a young age (about 14 or 15) he started living on his own. He didn't go out much or socialized save for some people in his secondary school. He has always been an introvert.
He doesn't sleep with hot girls. Of course many of the girls he sleeps with are quite pretty.
He still has some self esteem issues which is probably why he doesn't get the hot girls.
His fundamentals needs some improvement.
Now how does this friend of mine gets laid. Prior to entering the university (we've only spent a year in the university), his style was to meet a girl either in his school, or when he ventures into other schools close by with his pals, or when he gets introduced to them. Just the regular way non-puas meet girls. He'll then chat them up and grab their numbers. After getting their numbers he'll commence calling or texting (mostly texting) with them back and forth to build rapport. Sometimes on text he'll delve into what he calls dirty talk which is practically sex talk. And sometimes he'll literally have them agree to fuck him when they come over. Other times he'll just build rapport and then invite them over. Once they're in his house he'll then talks about sex, the girls will open up to him about their boyfriends, sex history, their favorite positions, etc. He eventually gets them aroused by talking about the process of sex, the female body parts, the vagina and all the crazy stuffs. Once they're aroused, bam! The rest is history. Fast forward to our current university life. He got into a conversation with two best friends who were are our classmates. He got the girls to open up about sex and started some dirty talk. He started telling them why it would be awesome for them to have a threesome. He painted a picture of how the process would be in their minds through words and guess what happened - one of the girls was literally dripping wet. Due to her sitting position and what she wore, it became visible. The other girl started laughing. The next day, one of the girls went to him and told him that they'd accepted to have a threesome with him, jokingly (whether she said it jokingly or not we both know what that means). My friend definitely does not have a clear-cut process to sex talk as he's not a pua, but it gets him laid. So imagine this: my friend is not good looking, he lacks some social skills due to his past history of not socialising (he isn't a social retard though), he doesn't have the best fundamentals or high social status but once he can isolate a girl and start some sex talk, he gets laid. I remember us being in a social gathering with some pretty girls and I was trying to do some socializing. He then tells me "man, all I need is just to be alone with a girl and have a one on one conversation". That has always been his style.
PS: He has of late started improving on his dressing and he's got a better haircut
Edit: He reached out to me recently (we're on break) telling me of how he's tired of fucking three girls that he has on rotation. One is a new girl and the other three are girls he's fucked before. If I ask him how he did it, he'll say - dirty talk. Here, dirty talk = sex talk and it gets him getting laid. Just thought I should let you guys know.

 

[lux7]

...

Very very interesting reply Bboy.

As much as I am close to your position, I wouldn't compare sex talk with Mystery Method or any other silliness.

Mystery Method isn't even a method, it's a (flawed) step by step description of what a "perfect seduction" should look like.

Sex talk instead is an actual method which also happens to get Alek laid.

 

[lux7]

...

Very interesting contribution.

Though that's no proof either of "what's superior", because just as much your average looking sex-talk-using friend is tired of his 3 girls, I'm short and bald and might be tired of my 4 girls gotten without sex talk (and that other guy is tired of his 7 girls gotten because he's a model agent ; and that other one because he's rich; etc. etc. you get the point) .

Your friends gives one more example of another person for whom sex talk is working. But doesn't tell us how many times it gets him blown off.
Or how many girls thought he was a creep. Or how many non-sexually experienced girls whom he could have gotten together with didn't end up with him because sex talk proved too much for them..

Also it says you're in Nigeria, don't wanna start poking a hornets' nest and going off topic, but it might be worth noting my experience black girls are more open minded to sex talk and that might also skew a bit the results.

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

Works anytime of the day, anywhere. On dates during the day, at clubs, bars, house parties, etc.

What you have to understand is that this isn't a choice between one or the other.

I deep dive women AND tell them I want to stick my cock inside of them.

I actually counted all of my lays recently and tallied the number of them that included direct sexual game.

31/61 = 50%

And that's not counting the many, many women I've gotten "yes"s from but didn't want to take to bed, or the women who did agree and I blew it just before the end (the failure had nothing to do with me talking about sex).

Also, sex talk isn't natural? Please, it's the most natural thing in the world.

Alek is more effective than me, as he's been doing this a lot longer and his method is lower risk. He makes lots of implications and indirectly talks to women about sex. I tell women to in no uncertain terms my sexual intentions. And it works too. I'm still ironing out and perfecting the process, but it gets me laid (and is hella fun; I get bored if I don't talk about sex).

I ask women everything. What they're into, how many partners they've had, when the last time they got laid was, if they like to suck dick, etc. And I just ask the questions as if I'm asking about the weather. Girls used to comment on it and tell me that I ask weird shit but do it cool, so they don't mind. Now women don't even comment ,they just respond. Sometimes, I get women talking to me about their deepest secrets without me even starting it (I approached two girls a while back and they both agreed to go on a date with me; then I asked the one girl if she'd ever been on a triple date and she said no, but she's had threesomes, and then we all started talking about threesomes. My dumbass didn't try to set one up for that night - dumb dumb).

Do girls blow me off rudely?

Not really, no. The only time I get auto-rejected these days is if a girl wanted me to talk to her and I miss it or am not quick on the draw. I can't remember the last time some girl got creeped out by my direct sexual comments. In the past a few girls would tell friends in social circle that it was weird how I offered to take them to my room and stick my dick in their mouth, but then they just go right back to flirting with me. Tons of girls will call me creepy and then hookup with me. It's called bullshit.

Do I get rejected?

Uh yeah, just as much as any guy. Honestly, when you're as genuine about sex as I am, you get blown off LESS than a normal guy would. I'm willing to bet that once I make this super consistent, I'll blow minds with my numbers. And I am going to get it.

My problem right now is the last %. I can get girls talking to me about having sex with me, what they like, etc and even grabbing me/touching me hard, but when you're so direct, you have to TOTALLY win a girl over, because she needs to say "fuck you" to every ASD bone in her body. Which, again, isn't impossible and while my lay count isn't where I'd like it to be, I consider my average quality and how old I am and it's pretty damn good and speaks to the efficacy of direct sexual talk (but when you compare me to natural friends of mine who have 500 lays...gets a bit silly. But my game is actually better than his and he even admitted it lol).

But I've also been doing this a long time. Me talking about sex to a girl I just met FEELS like I'm asking about the weather. I don't hesitate.

So does that mean you'll creep girls out if you start trying this?

Sure. But probably not as many as you think - when I was a total noob I did the same thing and girls loved it, because I was so genuine and naive with it. Plus, the rejection involved shouldn't mean anything if it's what you want to do and if it's effective (it is).

My student incorporates a lot of my sex talk game and he does quite well, too (has an even higher lay count than me..he's also 28).

I can answer any and all questions you have about why it shouldn't work but does.

And I'll give you the hint to how I've made it even more deadly: romance.

Once I truly iron this out, I'll show you why it's the superior method

Hector

 

[Mystique]

@Lux

Very interesting contribution.
Though that's no proof either of
"what's superior", because just as
much your average looking sex-talk-
using friend is tired of his 3 girls, I'm
short and bald and might be tired of
my 4 girls gotten without sex talk
(and that other guy is tired of his 7
girls gotten because he's a model
agent ; and that other one because
he's rich; etc. etc. you get the point)
.
Your friends gives one more example
of another person for whom sex talk
is working. But doesn't tell us how
many times it gets him blown off.
Or how many girls thought he was a
creep. Or how many non-sexually
experienced girls whom he could
have gotten together with didn't end
up with him because sex talk proved
too much for them..
Also it says you're in Nigeria, don't
wanna start poking a hornets' nest
and going off topic, but it might be
worth noting my experience black
girls are more open minded to sex
talk and that might also skew a bit
the results.

Just wanted to clarify that my intention was not to say sex talk is superior but rather to show you that sex talk works by giving you an example of someone who uses it.

 

[lux7]

@Lux
Just wanted to clarify that my intention was not to say sex talk is superior but rather to show you that sex talk works by giving you an example of someone who uses it.

I know, I know man .

Fully believe it works, Alek makes a pretty job in making that clear and the another example you bring is also much appreciated.

 

[lux7]

Works anytime of the day, anywhere. On dates during the day, at clubs, bars, house parties, etc.
....

Veery interesting Hector, thank you for your contribution, especially noteworthy so as it's from direct experience.

As you noted your method is different than sex talk as used by Alek though.
Interesting enough, Alek actually warns AGAINST the way you use it (as much as Chase seem to do). And YET works for you.
And Chase warns AGAINST sex talk and YET Alek seems to use it to great effect (without any deep dive too).

Goes a long way to say how different styles can ALL work for different people and, likely, in different situations and with different girls, which is also key (ie.: the kind of girl/relationship one want might respond better to a different method, and that person is better off sticking to one of those methods. Ie.: sex talk at night to get girls who might have gone out looking for fun horny might be better for Alek than deep dive )

I actually counted all of my lays recently and tallied the number of them that included direct sexual game.

31/61 = 50%

Sounds like a very good ratio man.
We don't know though what you'd have reached with, say, some solid deep diving without directly stating intention.
Or if you could have reached a better ratio by NOT going direct with the type of girls whom you felt might have been taken aback.

(but when you compare me to natural friends of mine who have 500 lays...gets a bit silly. But my game is actually better than his and he even admitted it lol).

Also in his younger 20's? Crazy, very uncommon results there..

And I'll give you the hint to how I've made it even more deadly: romance.

That's very interesting there.

Though when I let myself go the most emotionally, I often ended up with women too much into me and that means, as much as it's my thing and I'd love to, that I try to avoid letting feelings run wild to avoid broken hearts the way Casanova used to do.

Still would love reading your point on it though (God I'm using "though" a bit too much lol).

 

[lux7]

Well, I like to keep threads on point and on course.

In summary:

Hector shows direct works (in a variety of situations).
Alek and Mystique's friend show sex talk works (Alek more night, Mystique friend in different situations).
Chase and many others show deep dive work in many different scenarios and with most women.

The question is still standing on which one is OVERALL SUPERIOR.

Given all the variables out there and the contributions we've seen, such a question is probably hardly answerable EMPIRICALLY.
Unless one were to dedicate his life to master all of the different methods, and then have 10.000 different interactions with each different methods, with possibly all interactions filed for age, ethnicity, location and environment, then we don't have the data.
And who'd be silly enough to actually do that?

Without that data, we are left arguing.
Though someone with lots of experience who tried all of the methods will probably reach a better conclusion.


As a side note, even if you were to you reached a conclusion, any single method doesn't have to be better in each single occasion and with each single woman and one could still be more effective by blending the different styles to suit the situation.
Adaptability can often be superior to sticking to one single way.
Ie.: you deep dive the inexperienced girl on the date you feel might be taken aback with direct game with whom you don't wanna be 100% lover category; you sex talk at the club where you look for one night stand; you directly state intention to the aloof girl as a "wake up call" on what she might be getting.

 

[lux7]

My very personal take is that once you have a good baseline attraction, then most methods will bring good results -even taking it slow will bring decent results at that point and with some girls-.

Many girls who physically stop to engage with you and any date are to be considered with some baseline attraction (exceptions apply).
But, provided you're able to bring some sexual vibes even without sex talk, deep dive is less risky in the sense it won't drive away any women, it will keep the mystery alive and even gives you easier options of BF material in case you want to go that way, which means: it will bring you more results.
Chase mentioned indeed directly stating intentions will make you come across a bit lower value because you'd otherwise would have no need in stating your intentions. (it was his answer to a once very popular RSD guy who branded that method "shock and awe" if I recall correctly).
I would gladly hear Hector's point on it as the guy who actually uses the method.

If you don't have ANY attraction instead, deep diving is hard to pull off as it requires a partner willing to answer your questions and it's a bit slower in ramping attraction than sex talk is.
In those cases, direct intentions are superior. But here I'm talking about fringe situations where you don't have many others options, hence you go for broke (the times I've used it to good effect it was like that, ie: "let's get a drink" "I don't drink" "a drink can also mean coffe" "I don't drink coffe" "ok, then let's go and I will fuck you silly").
Sex talk is also quicker in getting quick attraction than deep dive (Alek has an example of such a turnaround).

That's my personal take.

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

32/62 = 51.6%

This shit is deadly. Had my pick of girls actually. Usually I'd go with the harder, but more socially boosting lay...however, after a few lost opportunities in the past, I'm more about taking the easier lay nowadays. One girl was a bit cuter, much more popular, and had stayed interested over 2 interactions and some texting - she saw me out tonight and approached me. Hugged her and grabbed her ass and she was smiley and touchy. But I was with a girl who was a layup and was grabbing her at the same time. Popular girl had blown me off a few nights earlier (albeit in a very flirty way), so I wanted to tease her a bit. Probably just text her and smash her this week.

But, relevant to this thread, I was direct with both of them.

Popular girl, the other night at the club, danced on me very erotically, pushing her ass against my very hard cock. I whispered in her ear that I was taking her home that night and she jokingly scoffed at me and put her hand in my face, but then I just chatted up this other girl, got her number, and kept active. When she left the club, she grabbed my face and smiled at me as she walked away; couldn't follow her cuzz I was still at work

Other more chill girl was being super flighty and running off. I just decided to go home without her, then she found me again, and i just told her she's coming home with me. She was sassy and said no, but was all over me, so I just grabbed her hand and started walking. Fingerbanged her in the car and had her saying how excited she was to get home and fuck me (even though just 5 minutes ago swore she wasn't going home with me). Smash out 3 times and now I'm gonna watch game of thrones and text some other bitches.

So key tips:

- godlike frame control. You have NO doubt you're taking her home. ANy shake in your frame = no pussy. When you try and take her home, go all out (you can be chill and ask logistics and if she wants to leave now, but after this, just be insistent)
- very touchy (this helps a lot but isn't necessary; however, you can really do this anywhere - dates are no exception. if i'm not tapping my date on the ass within the first few minutes these days, it's not a date. Don't know why I don't see guys being more touchy on their dates. Treat her like she's already your girlfriend and grab her waist, ass, hand, etc). Aaron Sleazy is a great resource for being touchy (and even though his experience is in clubs, you can do it anywhere)
- kissing or kiss-teasing; helps ramp up tension and as you guys kiss or kiss-tease, you can whisper naughty shit in her ear or try and close
- Romance/super nice; make her feel special and good for being such a slut for you. Essentially you're aksing this girl to risk everything socially for you to be so touchy/flirty/sexual in public, you gotta be super nice....but at the same time
- Be a dick; don't think this style can be pulled off by guys who don't know how to be a dick sometime. Need to write a tactical article on being a dick. Mostly I've written it from mindset perspectives, but guys really don't understand that the main premise of being an asshole is just disgrarding common etiquettes, speaking your mind, and casually sidestepping her tests in a slightly patronizing fashion (like "plz girl, you're playing games and we both know it")

I'm half tempted to go back out again...but I'm pretty tired. Game of thrones sounds dope right now. Murp.

Hector

 

[HellAtlantic]

Id be interested in your "how to be a dick" article.

 

[lux7]

32/62 = 51.6%

Fantastic ratio man.
Yet doesn't say much about "better than".

Made me curious to check my stats in the last months, but found it easier to pull this resource from the forum: T Vaunsuva here, friend of Richard, states 85%-90% with deep dive.
That's some fantastic ration too, though purely applied to dating context (and doesn't provide proof on which is better either, who knows what he'd have done with sex talk? Though once you're at 90%, would you even be interested in trying anything new.. ? )

OT
Interesting example of "direct" game there, are you working in a club these days.

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

Made me curious to check my stats in the last months, but found it easier to pull this resource from the forum: T Vaunsuva here, friend of Richard, states 85%-90% with deep dive.

That's a measure of precision, not accuracy. He says that 85-90% of dates end in sex; I'm saying of my 62 lays, 32 involved me being direct. That's a measure of population.

Tons of variables we're not considering in addition to this.

Quantity, quality of girl (hotter girls screen harder; more conservative women screen harder; etc), length of seduction ,etc. If you want to be a purist, then we gotta distill results down with qualifiers and quantifiers. I don't particularly enjoy longer seductions and with this style, I'm screening hard and fast. My dates almost never last more than an hour, much of the time less than 30 mins.

You'd have to have quite the experiment to figure out which is better. Plus, even if you found that a style other than yours was better, would you take the time to adopt it? At a certain point, a 5% gain might not be worth the total rehaul of your personality.

So I'd say for those who are interested in the FUN of being direct with women first and the efficiency of it second, I'll provide some detailed ways to make it happen as I perfect it.

Hector

 

[lux7]

Made me curious to check my stats in the last months, but found it easier to pull this resource from the forum: T Vaunsuva here, friend of Richard, states 85%-90% with deep dive.

That's a measure of precision, not accuracy. He says that 85-90% of dates end in sex; I'm saying of my 62 lays, 32 involved me being direct. That's a measure of population.

God it, thought you were talking about "out of X encounters where I used direct game, X ended up in sex", which honestly would have been a bit more telling about how effective the direct game is.

Definitely the variables are many, but some information is better than none.
A 85-90% of dates ending up in sex does say something about the efficacy one can reach with deep dive once well applied in a date setting. And it says it can be extremely effective.

I'd be curious to hear something from Alek now, like how many interactions does he have on average where he gets into sex talk and how many girls get horny VS how many, say, don't or actually get a bit weirded out, if any.

 

[Teevster]

Note: I am not expert when it comes to deep diving.

First of all, one need to understand that there are no such a thing as a perfect seduction method. They all have their pros and cons.
Deep Diving:
- Creates a strong emotional connection
- Low anti-slut defense risk
- More fitted for the dater and guys who likes long term seduction (like chase)
Sex talk:
- Creates a strong sexual connection
- Higher chances of ASD (that being said, I do not consider ASD-kicks to be a bad thing as one can easily reframe them - into "sexual freedom" and "sexual liberalism", liberating the girl sexually)
- More fitted for quick buyers temperature and quick pulls, but can be transitioned into forming deeper and longer relationships.

In addition to that, some methods are more fitted for certain personalities. Chase and I are two very different people. He is more laidback while I am more of a talker. In addition to that he enjoys connectign with women on an emotional level - I am more reserved. I do like to connect with women too, but not on a high level. I like to connect on a sexual level.

Sure deep-diving can work well in a club, but I'd say sex talk might work better in those scenarios. That being said, I believe deep diving might be better in date situations.

The bottom line is this - It all depends on who you are and how good you are pulling the technique off. It also depends on what kind of results your looking for. Sex talk is all about opening the girl up on a sexual level and get wild and good sex really quickly. Deep diving is more about connecting on a personal level. You can easily see how this changes the dynamic.

-Alek