Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?



Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby Hue » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:07 pm

Hey guys, hope we're doing great today.

I've slowly developed feelings for a coworker, who has recently developed into a seemingly pretty good relationship with her boyfriend.

The other night she told me that I have a lot of the traits that he does. In the past I've grabbed her ass with him in the vicinity and she's gotten very excited, and we talk and flirt at work a good bit. After she told me this I qualified her and told her that were she single I would fuck her brains out. She lit up.

There were a few very small windows after that for a smooth calibrated kiss, but I missed those because other people showed up. Were I to escalate it would have to be done very privately, and I only really want to if it's an environment conducive to sex and I can take it from kiss --> intercourse.

Beside the technical point of view, I know that we're compatible, share similar attitudes, and I think I would have fun dating this girl. BUT if I have to make her cheat in order to do that.. won't that teach her that cheating is okay even in a good relationship?

How long would it be until another me comes along? And does that really matter if she genuinely wanted someone else anyways?

I also can't say this for sure, but knowing her I think it'd be quite difficult to make her leave her monogamous relationship for a MLTR set up - unless I just nailed GP's system as things progressed.

Lastly, I'm aware that because I haven't slept with this girl I shouldn't be thinking all this far ahead with her. However sleeping with her is something I'm questioning if I should do (assuming a successful seduction eventually happens - and I think it would) out of a long term utility. She towards the end of our last interactions started to say "I would never cheat" but every other piece of data from the interaction makes it obvious she wants / wanted to (and this has been multiple times).

As far as her relationship and why it's good is kind of an interesting situation to me. They were set for a temporary relationship because he was leaving state, so in her words they let their guards down more and simply enjoyed the time they had left. Then his job location switched, and now he's hear to stay. So now they can stay together and, overall, she seems pretty happy about that. I've met the guy and he's friendly, fits the provider role, and knows himself pretty well. He's high value. I might have a few things working for me more than he does but I don't know him well enough to say.


So yea, that's a question floating around in my head. My gut says I should just smash next opportunity, but my longterm thinking side says either find a girl like her or just wait until they breakup as to not be getting involved with a girl who cheats.


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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby Fuck This » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:58 pm

First of all, Co Workers are off limits per the "Don't Shit where you eat" principle, but as for relationship quality girls....

My rule would be that if she cheats to be with you she can go no higher than a FB.

If she leaves him and gets the rebound out of her system, then she can be a LTR candidate. Maybe a fling would precipitate a breakup, or solidify that the relationship is on the way out....
But public dating is going to have to wait until a mourning period has expired. Still there will always be whispers that you had something going before given your history with her.
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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby Franco » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:04 pm

Hue,

Have to agree with FT on the "don't shit where you eat" principle -- it's one of the few mainstream ideas that actually has lasting and truthful value to it.

I, personally, do not get involved with any women at my workplace. I know it's tough to avoid that because women at your workplace feel so... accessible. They flirt often, you get to see them every day, and women at the workplace are just good at making men desire them in that environment if they want it to be that way. It's Temptation Island sometimes, especially if you work somewhere with dozens of beautiful women trotting around in pencil skirts (and I fucking love pencil skirts).

That being said, whether or not a woman cheats or has cheated before does not play a role in my decision to make her into something longer term. I believe any woman can (and will) cheat under the right conditions or circumstances, so attempting to select a woman based on that just may result in you being the first person she actually cheats on. It's not a useful metric in my book. Instead, it's better to get good at preventing those conditions or circumstances from ever occurring in your relationships (to the best of your ability) to avoid her wanting to cheat at all in the first place.

Ultimately, for this girl, I'd say to have some casual, flirty fun with her around the office and use her for pre-selection and practicing your flirting techniques. Other than that, my advice mirrors FT's: steer clear.

(EDIT: If she breaks up with her boyfriend and changes companies, however... all bets are off. Get her number and go for it!)

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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby ZacAdam » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:32 pm

Hue,

Smash if

- you the one in power
- you the one who knows how to work the room/circle at work

I wont recommend making her cheat. Why? because he works in the same office/company.

Hue wrote:She towards the end of our last interactions started to say "I would never cheat" but every other piece of data from the interaction makes it obvious she wants / wanted to (and this has been multiple times).


Until you smash/sleep/sex/brawl (LOLX)/whatever it is people want to call it: all this is manipulation. Resource gathering, especially in work setting. Might definitely not apply to you But........

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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby Big Daddy » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:29 am

@ Franco

I understand that you can't possibly prevent any girl from cheating, but I don't think that's the issue. Because there are girls with different cheating thresholds e.g. to a party girl it's not a big deal but to another girl the "right opportunity" means a one in a million chance that may never even happen in her lifetime. Yeah, it can happen but you can be way more lax in your approach to prevent those circumstances.

This is something I wonder myself. Like you, I don't believe that there is such a thing as a girl that would never cheat, however that doesn't mean that it's not something that can't be positively reinforced (which is what I think Hue worries about).

It's like when you never did something wrong before, and someone tips you over the other side and you realize it's not so bad, and what was preventing you from doing that this whole time so was a mere construct of your mind that made you feel guilty. It doesn't mean you're gonna do it again, however if the situation presented itself again you wouldn't be stuck on the "what if" but skip directly to "eh, I've done this before anyway."
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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby Hue » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:09 am

Appreciate all the replies dudes.

To clarify, this is my job at a bar. All my coworkers know that I sleep around, and there's multiple casual relationships going on already. Hookups happen all the time. The service industry practically encourages hookups - it's not like an office.

FT,
First of all, Co Workers are off limits per the "Don't Shit where you eat" principle, but as for relationship quality girls....

But public dating is going to have to wait until a mourning period has expired. Still there will always be whispers that you had something going before given your history with her.

I agree with you in any serious employment position. Actually, I've learned my lesson already the hard way on that one... it's usually just not worth it :P Though I will say I learned a lot from that mistake, both in regard to actually seducing the girl, the effect us seeing eachother had on her, and from the negative consequences.

Personally, I don't give a shit if people find out that I made a hard pass at her - and some probably already know. It doesn't effect me in this environment in THAT serious of a way. In fact, since I've started being so overtly sexual and a guy that sleeps around my coworkers have only been nicer to me (though this is combined with the fact that I'm quite friendly to everyone and usually have a good vibe about me at work).

My rule would be that if she cheats to be with you she can go no higher than a FB.

If she leaves him and gets the rebound out of her system, then she can be a LTR candidate. Maybe a fling would precipitate a breakup, or solidify that the relationship is on the way out....

Could you elaborate on this? As in, why is that a strict rule of yours?

My thoughts on it is that if she's a girl who can commonly cheat --> FB because I don't want my own emotions played with.

If she leave him she should get the rebound out of her system so she doesn't enter anything with you with all these twisted emotions (if she's even willing to jump into another relationship).

I could see how a fling would expedite the breakup, yea.


Another large part of my question stems from this being a girl who seems to be enjoying her relationship - so a rash decision to fuck me might end up leaving her worse than I found her. Not only do I not want to do this to girls in general, but because I have unexpectedly developed some feelings for her as a person I specifically wouldn't want to do that to her. Hmm. Since I know that I shouldn't be liking her like this without having fucked her my own feelings sound kinda backwards to me too.


Franco,
Have to agree with FT on the "don't shit where you eat" principle -- it's one of the few mainstream ideas that actually has lasting and truthful value to it.

I, personally, do not get involved with any women at my workplace. I know it's tough to avoid that because women at your workplace feel so... accessible. They flirt often, you get to see them every day, and women at the workplace are just good at making men desire them in that environment if they want it to be that way. It's Temptation Island sometimes, especially if you work somewhere with dozens of beautiful women trotting around in pencil skirts (and I fucking love pencil skirts).

Yea that's a good point. Both parties keep it interesting for each other in this sweet spot of safe-flirting, but the moment one party actually busts a move it creates much more of an evaluative process for how things will play out.. similar to social circle except more consequences and power positioning.
That being said, whether or not a woman cheats or has cheated before does not play a role in my decision to make her into something longer term. I believe any woman can (and will) cheat under the right conditions or circumstances, so attempting to select a woman based on that just may result in you being the first person she actually cheats on. It's not a useful metric in my book. Instead, it's better to get good at preventing those conditions or circumstances from ever occurring in your relationships (to the best of your ability) to avoid her wanting to cheat at all in the first place.

Ultimately, for this girl, I'd say to have some casual, flirty fun with her around the office and use her for pre-selection and practicing your flirting techniques. Other than that, my advice mirrors FT's: steer clear.

Okay, I got you here. Any woman can and will cheat under the correct circumstances and it would be naive / impractical to consider that you HAVE a woman at any given time. You can continue to max out your positive reinforcements to the best of your abilities, but it's never absolute.

Like I mentioned to FT though.. it's really just a different environment working at a bar than an office space. There's a spectrum to what you can get away with in work environments (some office spaces are super PC, others are a little more laid back but don't want you fucking, quirky bars like mine have sex jokes being cracked every 5 minutes and casual hookups, as well as relationships forming, are pretty common).

(EDIT: If she breaks up with her boyfriend and changes companies, however... all bets are off. Get her number and go for it!)

I'd imagine where I stand now is the "back-pocket" guy if she ever were to break up with him. I might be leaving to a different bar soon, as well, so I'll have to observe how the change even in a service industry environment effects our interactions.


Zac
Smash if

- you the one in power
- you the one who knows how to work the room/circle at work

Yea Hector told me that repercussions in social circles mostly have to do with how well liked the person is by the most amount of people. I just came back from a harsh deficit. 95% of the people I work with seem to like & respect me now because of some changes I made in myself, but I'm not sure of my true "rating on the power scale" compared to hers.

I wont recommend making her cheat. Why? because he works in the same office/company.

I briefly thought about the possible narrative, "Hue was being aggressive and made her cheat", but because of specific experiences and conversations I've had with this girl I doubt she would spin it, and that actually has a lot to do with us having similar attitudes and why I like her.

I'm at the point that so long as I'm not getting fired if other people want to say that about me they can.

Until you smash/sleep/sex/brawl (LOLX)/whatever it is people want to call it: all this is manipulation. Resource gathering, especially in work setting. Might definitely not apply to you But........

I agree overall with this, but I think it's important to recognize that it's not necessarily conscious manipulation. A lot of times girls are just following their emotions and if their psyche is running into a wall that feels shame for having sexual feelings for you even though she has a boyfriend because of societal expectations, that might cause a hiccup or a comment in that direction. Moments after that, days after that, weeks after that comment she can be in a different place about her "stance" on the issue though.

When I think of manipulation by girls I think of investment gaining techniques or shit tests by girls (which CAN be in the form of "I have a boyfriend" / "I don't cheat"), but it can also be her dealing with an internal conflict that you as the seducer, assuming you're cool with the prospect of boning her yourself, have the job of navigating her through her own mind to get to a better place or frame of the situation.


Big Daddy,
This is something I wonder myself. Like you, I don't believe that there is such a thing as a girl that would never cheat, however that doesn't mean that it's not something that can't be positively reinforced (which is what I think Hue worries about).

Yes, that's my primary concern. I'm aware that I could be cheated on, but as Franco put it it's good to be preventative of these measures. So wouldn't getting it in with her make her slightly more inclined to cheat later - or should I be waaay outweighing that with other preventative measures such as lots of orgasms, setting good expectations, making her feel cared about, and improving myself the whole time?

It's like when you never did something wrong before, and someone tips you over the other side and you realize it's not so bad, and what was preventing you from doing that this whole time so was a mere construct of your mind that made you feel guilty. It doesn't mean you're gonna do it again, however if the situation presented itself again you wouldn't be stuck on the "what if" but skip directly to "eh, I've done this before anyway."

Yesss, you get me. Decisions and behaviors build up to create that mental construct of reality and how you interact with it - a process that never stops. It's the root of where lazy and productive people differ, for example, but it can be applied to anything.
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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby Fuck This » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:11 pm

I wouldn't say the FB upper limit is a RULE, as much as it is a guideline to prevent the over investing in a relationship. Your description for reasoning is certainly a good reason.

Now I'm not original, and Blackdragon has written volumes on upgrading FB's MLTR's and OLTR's. I read it and thought "that's a good mindset" .
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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby Hue » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:32 pm

I wouldn't say the FB upper limit is a RULE, as much as it is a guideline to prevent the over investing in a relationship. Your description for reasoning is certainly a good reason.

Now I'm not original, and Blackdragon has written volumes on upgrading FB's MLTR's and OLTR's. I read it and thought "that's a good mindset" .

Word, thanks for clarifying. Blackdragon has yet to disappoint me with his stuff, I might make an effort to snoop over there more than I already do.



After reading some and thinking a bit about it, as well as interacting with her more, I think I have a game plan for how this could go.

My value increase at work is building rapidly with momentum, because I've gotten much better at being honest with myself and with others. I think I still have some work to do with my inner game (such as removing pedestals with super high quality girls or becoming 100% outcome independent), but I'm making strides like CRAZY over the past few weeks. It's to the point where some of the things I've known from technical game, but felt weird doing them / didn't really understand them, are coming out of my mouth naturally.

For example she was saying how her boyfriend didn't pay for her drinks the other night because he's got money and she's not and she wanted to keep up with the guys - and ended up spending a shit ton of money - and she was complaining to me about it.

I just laughed and said, "yea haha I don't know, I'm with him on this one". She got flustered but in a cute way, and then laughed. She was attracted to me saying that, instead of saying "yea fuck him blah blah blah".

The move is to become a better version of the boyfriend, or at least appear to be through frame and capitalizing. Here I make a similarity to the guy that shows non-provider qualities, without validating her self-serving reasoning (which, ultimately, she wouldn't really have respected if I just agreed with her). I was also being honest, so it didn't come off as phony.

So that way, if there's ever a short term or long term period where she's upset with him / wants to cheat / wants to break up for whatever reason, she knows that there's a high value guy, just like her boyfriend, that she's not upset with. And so long as that guy remains sexual and feeding the right frames, she's always reminded that that guy has some good dick for her.



Yea, food for thought.

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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby ZacAdam » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:49 am

Hue,

Just in case that I like to note: Women think very differently when it comes to "cheating".

It's like asking a fish what is a tree.

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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby Hue » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:35 pm

. Just in case that I like to note: Women think very differently when it comes to "cheating"

By this do you mean how girls convince themselves that them "cheating" doesn't actually count because of XYZ reason?

"That was in cancun"

"It was just a blowjob"

"It was one time"
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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby Ambiance » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:11 pm

Little late to the party but here are my thoughts.

Every guy desires a different level of security in their romantic relationships. For instance, I know guys who don't mind the downsides of dating party girls (ridiculous right?:P). However, if you are serious about elevating your position in life beyond that of hedonistic or social pursuits, you shouldn't consider dating women who put themselves in environments that are prone to cheating. That would include anyone who works in a bar.

Let me put it this way: can you see Chase doing anything other than a one night stand with this girl? I can't. Of course, not everyone aspires to reach Chase's level, but I don't think that applies to you. I could see Blackdragon making her a low end MLTR if she wasn't a coworker (he is adamant about not dating coworkers). The difference is Chase only does (far as I know) one-sided monogamy while BD doesn't mind his girls getting some on the side.

So if she is out for girlfriend consideration, do you get with her? I'd say yes, so long as you don't care about your job, and aren't friends with her boyfriend. Should be a good learning experience no matter what.

As far as girls in general... I remember a comment by Chase on an article years ago pertaining to continuing things with women who were attached when you first slept with them. I'm pretty sure Chase said he cuts things off after two dates, even if it was a Love-at-First-Sight/Fascination thing. Which surprised me at the time, but I understand now. With abundance, and especially with absolute abundance, why risk it? Give these girls an experience to cherish the rest of their lives, but then move on. Easier said than done, I know. Maybe even overkill. For instance, Chase wrote about how his own dad started dating his mom after stealing her from another guy. I for one am not yet in a place where I'd end a budding LaFS/Fascination relationship with a girl after stealing her.

You're a little in over your head with this girl. Which is okay- I have been in the EXACT same situation with coworkers, and had the same questions arise, and had it drive me crazy for a bit. Don't worry about her, and don't try to be a better version of her boyfriend. Just be a Lover with her. It is what she needs (or will need if her relationship is a new one).

Best of luck Hue;)

(PS if anyone knows the link to the comment of Chase's I'm talking about let me know. I remember him answering three similar questions in three paragraphs about dating girls who have cheated in the past.)
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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby Chicothat » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:20 pm

Hue wrote:Hey guys, hope we're doing great today.

I've slowly developed feelings for a coworker, who has recently developed into a seemingly pretty good relationship with her boyfriend.

The other night she told me that I have a lot of the traits that he does. In the past I've grabbed her ass with him in the vicinity and she's gotten very excited, and we talk and flirt at work a good bit. After she told me this I qualified her and told her that were she single I would fuck her brains out. She lit up.

There were a few very small windows after that for a smooth calibrated kiss, but I missed those because other people showed up. Were I to escalate it would have to be done very privately, and I only really want to if it's an environment conducive to sex and I can take it from kiss --> intercourse.

Beside the technical point of view, I know that we're compatible, share similar attitudes, and I think I would have fun dating this girl. BUT if I have to make her cheat in order to do that.. won't that teach her that cheating is okay even in a good relationship?

How long would it be until another me comes along? And does that really matter if she genuinely wanted someone else anyways?

I also can't say this for sure, but knowing her I think it'd be quite difficult to make her leave her monogamous relationship for a MLTR set up - unless I just nailed GP's system as things progressed.

Lastly, I'm aware that because I haven't slept with this girl I shouldn't be thinking all this far ahead with her. However sleeping with her is something I'm questioning if I should do (assuming a successful seduction eventually happens - and I think it would) out of a long term utility. She towards the end of our last interactions started to say "I would never cheat" but every other piece of data from the interaction makes it obvious she wants / wanted to (and this has been multiple times).

As far as her relationship and why it's good is kind of an interesting situation to me. They were set for a temporary relationship because he was leaving state, so in her words they let their guards down more and simply enjoyed the time they had left. Then his job location switched, and now he's hear to stay. So now they can stay together and, overall, she seems pretty happy about that. I've met the guy and he's friendly, fits the provider role, and knows himself pretty well. He's high value. I might have a few things working for me more than he does but I don't know him well enough to say.


So yea, that's a question floating around in my head. My gut says I should just smash next opportunity, but my longterm thinking side says either find a girl like her or just wait until they breakup as to not be getting involved with a girl who cheats.


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Bro, all woman want DICK, than a relationship. In that order don´t over think it. Show her the dick if she looks she´s into you. Everyone has their own style of doing this. Don´t be stupid woman are more perceptive and can´t often feel when you have a hard on.
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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby ZacAdam » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:49 am

Hue,

Hue wrote:By this do you mean how girls convince themselves that them "cheating" doesn't actually count because of XYZ reason?


the whole question you put here, and operate from that question, the mental operandi, is wrong.
Not wrong as in wrong, but it's a surface level mental operandi, if that's a way to put it.

They don't even think like how we think. They just fit people into roles, and just go.

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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby Hue » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:29 am

Let me back up a second on this. I feel as though I've done a poor job of articulating exactly what I'm getting at here.

This goes beyond this specific girl. This girl was the spark that led my mind to later questions and conclusions, but I haven't even fucked her so let's pause on that for a moment.

At the point I'm at I don't want a girl for a monogamous girlfriend and my bad if the title is misleading. When I use the term girlfriend I mean MLTR material.

I'm in the process of developing a lover mindset and I've reached a conundrum.

Also I've been on the boards long enough to notice that when people get successful some of their ideas / beliefs that seem to have held back before resurface in a self-validated or dogmatic way. I'm open to the idea that perhaps I'm doing that here.



Let's rephrase my question to be a bit more focused. Not speaking practically is too time consuming and ultimately just breaks down to personal preferences, speculation, and potential misconstrued ideas.


  1. Does seducing a girl in a good relationship have a higher potential for an ugly breakup than waiting until they're on the verge of breaking up / broken up?
  2. Does seducing a girl in a good relationship reinforce that cheating is okay in a good relationship and therefore work against you long term?
  3. If these things are true, does that mean you're leaving her worse than you found her, and therefore overly acting in your interest and not hers?


1). Thinking about potential messy situations and her emotions
2). I think as a technicality it would - but as I wrote to BD in my first reply, you could outweigh it with other reinforcements
3). Thinking about what it means to be a lover without lying to yourself and what the parameters actually look like


Ambiance,
Thoughtful reply on long term goals with women.

Eventually I think I'll be at a point where I may not date girls who work at bars, or drink like I do. Today I'm not. I don't see myself dating girls who party and work at bars when I'm finishing up my advanced degrees.

I 100% understand the concerns of the, "party girl for a long term candidate, no way!", and one of the reasons I'm considering it in the first place is this is not an average party girl. She's quite responsible as far as handling her alcohol. Even when she's fucked up, like the other night when she spent money, she has her shit together, gets home on her own accord, and isn't being some dumbfuck making lots of faux pas mistakes. She's in a high leadership position in her sorority. She's pays for her school, rent, food, etc. independently from her parents and she does very well in school.

She's an outlier as far as party girls, hence the reason she has candidacy in the first place.


In regard to her working with me, we've had a serious conversation on how girls make shit up when they aren't happy they cheated and it fucked with her family life quite a bit - it deeply bothers her that the gropacalypse is going on and her and I have very similar attitudes about the situation. She recognizes reverse rationalizations in this context.

I'm not saying she's incapable of making the same mistake were it to happen to her. That's naive. I am saying given her life experience and outspoken opinion on the matter I find it unlikely.


With the idea of me becoming "a better version of her boyfriend", I do not mean changing myself to fit the mold of some guy. I mean that if I find out specific traits in him she actually likes or dislikes then I can exude or grow certain traits and behaviors in myself that also fit my personality / frame. Or aspects that I'd like to build upon the man I am that are universally attractive that serve that utility.

It's not becoming some guy that I'm not, it's leveraging his weaknesses to let my strengths shine - you know what I mean?

Beyond the technical reasons of this strategy, that also resolves my problem assuming the conflict is legitimate. If she realizes I'm clearly the superior option in front of her, that would let HER decide if and when to break up with this guy (or make it abundantly obvious that she liked me more - which is NOT the current situation). If I'm waiting until the break up is obvious / until the break up happens, I'm not taking part in a potentially messy situation with her emotionally, and therefore I'm not hurting her.


Appreciate the comment. I've been diving into philosophy lately and I suppose it has me weighing out claims and the extent that things remain true so it hit me like a ton of bricks that if I'm going to be a lover I have to think about what happens the next day after I bang certain girls. ONS's are obviously a mutual selfish exchange. Nothing wrong with that under the right context and I plan to have many more. When emotions get involved (mine to her, her to me, her to her guy, her guy to her) it becomes convoluted if you really are trying to stay compassionate.

Distinguishing benevolent manipulation with self-deception to simply getting what I want is turning out to be a total rabbit hole once specific actions come into play.
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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby Big Daddy » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:52 pm

Yeah, I feel we should focus on discussing the following: "does making a girl cheat to be in any kind of long-term relationship with you affect negatively your future relationship, most notably make her more likely to cheat?"

My personal opinion is probably yes, specially if you are a great lover and you have a great relationship with her afterward. You might make it harder for her to leave because of that, but then again, you conditioned her to believe that if I cheat -> the guy will be awesomer and I will feel good.

Which is going to overpower which is probably a case-by-case analysis but something to keep in mind. Chase talks about this in an article he discusses that while girls with less partners are more tame, in some cases it can make them more likely to cheat if you give them good sex because they assume every guy is great.

Personally I wouldn't mind if I have an idea of how long I want/expect it to last, otherwise it's too risky. But that's my situation. For example, while you might increase the chance of a conservative girl cheating again from 1 in 1,000,000 to 1 in 200,000, it wouldn't be a big deal if you live in rural Nebraska but could be if you live in Cali and she goes to the beach every weekend.
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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby Hue » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:38 pm

Aight I think I got it.

1). I pedestalled this girl. I haven't seen her behavior after getting dick, so I don't actually *know* her well enough to have insights into what type of girl is really is. Nonetheless, girls are girls are girls.

2). If a girl wants dick, she'll get dick. Doesn't matter her past.

3). As a lover, you can only handle your interactions with her and give her what she wants when those opportunities are available to you. What happens after that is literally and figuratively out of your hands. That might mean her emotional rollercoasters after cheating (the conflict of interest for me, if you will).

4). Knowing that if she has better options she'll go to them is part of having high empathy, which is part of being a lover. All you can do is build yourself as a valuable man to her sexually and thereafter, because now you understand her better, begin to think from relationship stand points.

5). Lafs is possibly the only exception to this rule, but these are rare and obviously don't apply to my situation. My feelings developed slowly. However, this exception is an important possibility to consider when getting into the weeds of nuance in this sort of thing.


Lol. Yea I was thinking too rigidly.

Thought I was potentially just telling myself lies in order to satisfy my desires, and that + liking her eally clouded my thinking.

Thanks gents.

Since this topic is still open there's probably unanswered questions lying around, I'm still down for discussion if anyone has anything to add.


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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby ZacAdam » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:17 pm

Hue,

Hue wrote:Does seducing a girl in a good relationship have a higher potential for an ugly breakup than waiting until they're on the verge of breaking up / broken up?


RSD Owen, one of his girlfriend was from a girl in a relationship, as far as i know of. Not sure how the relationship is.

Girls don't think of ethics the same way. If women did, i be having a lot of them in rotation that it is a real problem for me to choose which one. I mean i learn the hard way with girls when you decide to "save" them, especially in workplace setting.

Ever we as pickup artist, ask ourselves: why do men leave the bathroom and let women talk to paparazzi?
Ever we as pickup artist, ask ourselves why do men pretend to act all tough infront of women when society ask about cheating, as a couple, especially when society is attacking the women on how much of a "slut" she is,?

I have a email conversation with Chase, long time ago.... and he noted that this is part of the manipulation of older men/established men. 'The switch between matrixes'.

Once i master this, you all will call me Jesus Christ. :) I am also aware this 'switching between matrixes' is what drives our civilization crazy, today. and i can explain in all out detail how to abuse it

ok i cutting the hyperbole.

Hue wrote:Does seducing a girl in a good relationship reinforce that cheating is okay in a good relationship and therefore work against you long term?


1)She doesn't view cheating the same way.
2)Roles.

She always find replacements, or potential replacements, until she can't find one. (menopause, etc)

Hue wrote:If these things are true, does that mean you're leaving her worse than you found her, and therefore overly acting in your interest and not hers?


If i was in competition and you knew she like me too, will you sleep with her? You know the answer.

What is "leaving her worse"?
Is it her boyfriend, her or how the game is currently laid out?. :) All plays a part.

p.s: Before someone goes "moral" on me, i will slap the fucking shit out of that mothercanucker. I have lose. So you can't beat me on morality, really. No one. :)

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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby Franco » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:54 pm

Wow, lots of replies on this one since I last posted! I haven't gone through all of them in detail, but I did want to make one addendum based on an earlier response from Hue:

If this is a "throwaway" job to you where you don't plan on making any upward movement in it as a career, then feel free to experiment!

This is especially true with something like being a bartender. Obviously you might like the place you work at, and if you really don't want to start any drama there, it's probably best to leave it alone. But if anything were to go sour there and you had to quit (or got fired) and you have little issue with that, then go ahead and explore a bit and see what you can come up with. Like you said, it's basically a social circle in that environment, and everyone is fucking everyone else.

I also wouldn't be thinking about long-term relationships with any girl I haven't been seeing consistently for at least a few months. So trying to analyze whether or not a girl is good for a relationship with you is nearly impossible to do until you are already sleeping with her. Clearly a girl that's a bartender is going to be "higher" risk of infidelity than your average girl who isn't around attractive dudes with good game and in an environment conducive to constant flirting, so keep that in mind.

This still wouldn't stop me from exploring the possibilities with a girl I was sleeping with, though. If she clearly likes you and wants to keep seeing you, and you clearly like her and want to keep seeing her, then just keep seeing her and see if she pushes for a relationship. As long as she's the one who pushes for the exclusivity, then that will be the clear indicator that she genuinely finds something uniquely awesome about you. If you push for the relationship, however, that is not only needy, but it also doesn't let you observe whether or not it's something she wants bad enough to bring up to you first.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,

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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby Hue » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:17 pm

Zac,

Thank you for clarifying! I originally thought that you might have been being reductive and I didn't know how to respond to your post. Also I was overlooking a crucial difference in the way a girl acts before and after you sleep with her, as well as how you view her after you've slept with her (once lust is conquered). Then the reframe in her mind of you as a higher value man than she might have thought that happens after she fucks you is also a massive factor.

Something Richard told me a while back was how women want three things in descending order:

  • Access to the top quality male
  • Access to resources
  • Reputation

And how men fit into these roles. They may / will manipulate to get these things.

She always find replacements, or potential replacements, until she can't find one. (menopause, etc)

Exactly.

If i was in competition and you knew she like me too, will you sleep with her? You know the answer.

This slapped me in the face a bit. If we are speaking from a competitive viewpoint, damn right I know what I'd do. Hahaha.

Is what you're saying that it IS all "a competition" because of the way that women place roles anyways? I agree with you, if that's what you mean.

Lately I have been trying to think from a more compassionate place. I've been trying to think less from a place of ego.

This may have made me neglect the realist point of view when it comes to these sorts of dynamics.

The lines blur with the cheating thing, since from a societal view it mimics adultery. Hector recently told me that "the devil's trick is to tell you that you have to use evil gain knowledge / power". But things can be learned / done that don't take that path, even if it reaches the "same" outcome.

I think I had to revisit my understanding of being a lover in this case, since the lines do blur and still conflict with some ways that I was raised. So this means I may have not fully removed some of those deeper beliefs yet, even though I understand and behave / have behaved according to the contrary point of view.

What is "leaving her worse"?

There are obvious things that will leave a girl worse. Purposefully influencing her emotions in a way that doesn't empower her, or cripples her, with the intention of doing so. As in, that you KNOW that what you're doing is for your ego and pride. Fuck that.

I've hurt girls before and I don't want to again. But so long as what I'm doing is setting the right expectations, not lying, giving the girl great dick and treating her with respect (if so deserved) to the best of my ability I can't say I didn't try.

For this reason (returning to the girl that sparked this train of thought), I think I would strike the iron when it's hot the next opportunity I get to fuck her. I don't owe her boyfriend anything, I would be very discreet about it, and I know she wants to.

As far as girls in the future - they deserve their own consideration.

p.s: Before someone goes "moral" on me, i will slap the fucking shit out of that mothercanucker. I have lose. So you can't beat me on morality, really. No one. :)

If I could simplify this all down to one question, it would be, "Does a lover sleep with other men's girls?".

My answer now would be, it depends on those involved and their situations. This includes me, which includes my morals.

So I have to ask the question, "am I okay with that?".

But that's up to me and no one else. There's literally no point in posting a question fixated to, "Is this moral?".

Other people commented on what they would do given the situation - which while it opens up ideas and topics that might lead me to my answer, doesn't at all give me "my" answer.

That's on me.



Big Daddy,
My personal opinion is probably yes, specially if you are a great lover and you have a great relationship with her afterward. You might make it harder for her to leave because of that, but then again, you conditioned her to believe that if I cheat -> the guy will be awesomer and I will feel good.

Which is going to overpower which is probably a case-by-case analysis but something to keep in mind. Chase talks about this in an article he discusses that while girls with less partners are more tame, in some cases it can make them more likely to cheat if you give them good sex because they assume every guy is great.

But that's my situation. For example, while you might increase the chance of a conservative girl cheating again from 1 in 1,000,000 to 1 in 200,000, it wouldn't be a big deal if you live in rural Nebraska but could be if you live in Cali and she goes to the beach every weekend.

Yea I mean, even with subjective reinforcers like Chase laid out (cheating --> good sex --> awesome guy) it still comes back to those three basic desires women are constantly seeking for with partners. That's like a "I've been missing THIS the whole time by staying with one guy??", the poor girl's been having vanilla ice cream her whole life and suddenly realized they have Ben & Jerry's flavors.

Similar to what Ambiance said, if you're in an environment more conducive to cheating (higher number of quality/aggressive guys), the guy has to be know it's very possible and it might happen. Frankly, this guy dating her now probably does know that. But that's my speculation and I shouldn't use that in isolation as a justification. Like you mentioned, case by case.

Making yourself the best option out there, knowing what environments she goes in, and being a good lover are all crucial steps to take. These aren't new ideas, but discussing it in this context adds a layer of depth for me I hadn't revealed to myself yet.

Lastly, with abundance, keeping the big things the focus of your standards and preferences (like looks, traits, habits / environment) and behaviors (building fundamentals, being dominant, and living a fulfilling life) is just way more practical. If you spend your time making decisions on these things, the more minor things mostly dissolve.

Personally I wouldn't mind if I have an idea of how long I want/expect it to last, otherwise it's too risky.

Coming full circle with having to sleep with her first.

When do you get the strongest feeling of how long you want it to last with a girl? Generally, that is.

It's almost always after the sex is over. The lust is overcome, and you're thinking less with your dick. For me at least, that's when I get the most obvious gut feeling of "I might do a few more rounds, but after that she's gone", to "I wouldn't mind having her around", to "let's start to think about how I'll be keeping her around and what technical stuff I should focus on".

~~~~
EDIT
~~~~

Franco,

Thought I'd just go ahead and post before replying to yours, though you cover a lot of what I'd reached as well. I appreciate you concisely walking through everything that you did.

So trying to analyze whether or not a girl is good for a relationship with you is nearly impossible to do until you are already sleeping with her.

I think this was my biggest issue and actually is a symptom of pedestalizing a girl.

It's very, very rare for people to meet and hit it off with such chemistry right off the bat that it's truly obvious, and blast through all those subconscious barriers, screening, and discovering how a person really thinks - or if that is congruent with what their behavior turns out to be.

It's making a frame / decision in your head that "yeah, she's someone I want to date", and then subconsciously you start to fill in the blanks of what that would be like which is plainly just fantasizing. Sure, some of it might be based in good faith, but it's speculating to a fault. Sleeping with a girl simply gives you more information on her, and what unfolds after that solidifies and makes that information more predictable. Then relationship consideration can come into play. Might happen faster with some than others.


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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby ZacAdam » Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:39 pm

Hue,

I miss out something

Hue wrote:Does seducing a girl in a good relationship have a higher potential for an ugly breakup than waiting until they're on the verge of breaking up / broken up?


I avoided the question, unintentionally. Going to sidetrack abit, the answer is below. :)

I been thinking about this for quite awhile. Trying to solve this issue. Let's shorten this. Let's say this formula is 'reality > hope' and principle is causality. I observe that there's a breakdown everyday between reality and hope. While in this scenario, i am operating from my reality and then the 'hope' is the idea i am trying to get across to you. This is the mechanics, the layout of how things often breaksdown. Also because you need to trust me/perceive me, which is thru your own 'hope'. And who am i for you to trust.

Ar can see why women go ad hominem, silence or find me attractive. :) I "get it". I notice where this breakdown.

This breakdown is often

-mistrust/lack of perceive to the other/natural human distrust
-lack of awareness
-lack of discernment of reality, state, principle and awareness because all plays a part (due to no one ever teach this)
-lack of the knowledge

ANSWER: My answer is this, to your *above* question.

1)i don't have enough data points to know if girls will cheat
2)I don't see where girls operate their lifes from that point of view.
3)My experience have not note anything near that mental process or lead to that scenario, if based on principles (number 2)

Hue wrote:Something Richard told me a while back was how women want three things in descending order:

Access to the top quality male
Access to resources
Reputation


Yea,,,, to serve her 3 roles. 'Purpose', 'Environment' and 'Tools'. :)

Hue wrote:Is what you're saying that it IS all "a competition" because of the way that women place roles anyways? I agree with you, if that's what you mean.


I am saying it because i want you to assess what is best for you. (that means you have to perceive/trust me on my intentions. *notes above *)

I put myself as the competition variable because i know what you will do. but you do not want to do it. This is mainly because

- ethics
- job

I ask you to imagine that Zac is also in the competition in your situation because we, men (whether we like it or not) likes to talk about ethics and morality, but we do the opposite.

I know this because i see all guys do it. I have texted a girl, an intelligent girl who is smart and beautiful and my bestfriend was texting the same girl in the same shop. Once i found out that he was texting her while we hangout, i let it go. I don't want to ruin a friendship because of a pussy, but that's not what most men do. And That's women. I'm sorry. That's just FACT. This is not virtue signalling. I am just telling it as it is.

Unless the guy is

1)in the same workplace
2)have more power than you
3)your bestfriend or friend who has value

SMASH. Just tear that ass up and feed it to the rabbits :)

Hue wrote:The lines blur with the cheating thing, since from a societal view it mimics adultery. Hector recently told me that "the devil's trick is to tell you that you have to use evil gain knowledge / power". But things can be learned / done that don't take that path, even if it reaches the "same" outcome.

I think I had to revisit my understanding of being a lover in this case, since the lines do blur and still conflict with some ways that I was raised. So this means I may have not fully removed some of those deeper beliefs yet, even though I understand and behave / have behaved according to the contrary point of view.


There's one thing that women do that it's not really them doing it. But a life blessing. Women are great hacks to unravel deep issues within you. They not doing it because they "know".

Women are not doing it because they "know". Women don't know shit. This thought is going against the top guys in the industry. But whatever. I'm only interested in reality


You have to take a step back. Fix this issues

- beliefs
- what you learn
- what you experience
- what you learn from other people
- your ethics guideline. (for Chase, staying away from married women with kids is his personal ethics. You have to decide on your own. No right or wrong)

You have to do this or you will have a lot bad experience like me. :)

Hue wrote: As in, that you KNOW that what you're doing is for your ego and pride. Fuck that.


Your ego and pride is related to sex.

People have use that on you to manipulate, so that they win. :) Now..... once you recognize that, then you slowly discern the ego and pride thing. Of course, it's a personal ethical standpoint.

Hue wrote:I've hurt girls before and I don't want to again. But so long as what I'm doing is setting the right expectations, not lying, giving the girl great dick and treating her with respect (if so deserved) to the best of my ability I can't say I didn't try.


Err, difficult.

Women want you to lie.

How do i say this. Take it this way. Once we bail out the banks, there's no such thing as morality/paying you the previous salary. I mean isn't this is what our economy and social reality is, right now?

Women all and mighty, championed feminism and then goes back to morality/previous chapter, once men ask what is in it for me in marriage? Women get really destroyed when they finally reach reality state and i have seen it. Not fun for them

This law also applies to me, because you perceiving me as you read this post. You need to trust me or hell break lose.

Anyway, i guess if she wants you to lie, you lie and give her a wink? :) This goes back to ethics that women by natural circumstances/as you go "expert", will reveal by themselves, to you.

Hue wrote:For this reason (returning to the girl that sparked this train of thought), I think I would strike the iron when it's hot the next opportunity I get to fuck her. I don't owe her boyfriend anything, I would be very discreet about it, and I know she wants to.


Franco said it.
I said it.

If you do not care about the job, then :) No right or wrong answer.

Hue wrote:Other people commented on what they would do given the situation - which while it opens up ideas and topics that might lead me to my answer, doesn't at all give me "my" answer.


Do you want me to lie to you? i am asking as a joke. :)

I am just telling you what other men would do, even if they say they aren't. I just tell the story of a "loser" who when he decide to be a winner, even his mentors went against him. Because we all want to win.



My values is Leftwing away from Chase (more liberal on Chase's values) and Rightwing from away of Hector (more conservative on Hector's values) This is where i am at. However i always revise up those ethical guidelines for myself. I believe everyone should.

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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby ZacAdam » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:19 pm

Hope you read my post and it solves your problem, bro.

It's getting expensive by my 'own market analysis company' -.-

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Re: Girlfriend Quality - Should you try to make them cheat?

Postby Hue » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:15 pm

Zac,

There's a lot from your post that's helping me dissect my issues, and perhaps for lack of a better phrase some red pills that I've known about, but maybe haven't fully digested?

My sexual success being tied to my ego, for example. I know that I dislike this about myself, but it's really addictive. I've also had people try to manipulate my feelings through that vessel (guys & girls).

I'm still going through some of the ideas you've written about and I'm trying to take a hard look at these areas without going too deep into the rabbit hole and overthinking the fuck out of everything, as I have a tendency to do that (especially when I add Espresso to the mix).

I think I learn the most from journaling, testing, and reassessing the behaviors and dynamics that arrive from some of the principles and ethics that have been mentioned.

So even after asking around and getting feedback from you and everyone else the way I learn tends to demand the reference points and data from my own experiences to internalize. I'll try to keep everything in mind going forward!

Thank you though, you've given me some important things to consider and I appreciate it.


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