Sex vs. Rape

Hey fellas,

I just removed a report from one of our members that discusses an interaction with a girl who was babysitting at his house. It's unclear from the report how much dialogue occurred between the poster and the girl, and it's unclear whether she awoke between when he began escalating on her and when he penetrated her, and, depending on the details, it's a situation that may qualify as rape or attempted rape (again, lots of details lacking, but I need to address it because things looked dicey).

I've also just warned the user personally that he needs to straighten out his escalation game, and he also needs to talk to this girl and make absolutely sure he didn't hurt her.

I shouldn't have to say this, but I'll write it here anyway - when escalating to sex for the first time with any girl, make absolutely sure:

• The girl you're escalating with is AWAKE when you do it
• The girl you're escalating with is not incapacitated in any other way (e.g., excessive inebriation, drug use, etc.)
• The girl you're escalating with is consciously aware of what you're doing
• That she accepts escalation to sex with you and wants it

There is an "overpowering her will" aspect to much of escalation to sex that happens, and it's especially important you make sure when overcoming resistance that you are NOT scaring a woman into submission, or anything of the sort (that's not what happened in this case, but it's worth talking about). I'd advise everyone to read the account in this article, where a guy escalates aggressively with a girl, clearly didn't think it was rape in how he reported it to his roommate, but the girl thought it was rape, the police/public agree, and the girl's friends agreed enough that they happily murdered the man:

Who Killed Gonzalo Ramirez?

From the article:

Slate said:

Ramirez called the next morning and asked Esparza out to breakfast. She told him she could go if her sister, Juana, and her friend, Nancy Luna, came too. Afterward, Ramirez offered to drive Esparza and Luna the 25 miles back to Pomona, and they said yes. He dropped Luna off at her dorm and asked Esparza if she would show him around campus. He also wanted a drink of water. “I said, ‘Well, I have a lot of work, but sure,’” Esparza later told the police. “‘I have to drop my stuff off, so let’s just go up to my room.’”

Esparza had a single. Ramirez lay down on her bed and asked her to have sex. She said no. He insisted, saying she’d led him on. She told the police that she said to him, “You know, you have to leave, because I have to do my work.” Ramirez persuaded her to lie down next to him, and they talked for a bit, but when he tried to kiss her, she got up and asked him again to go. Instead, he started pulling off her clothes and she wound up on the floor. “We were struggling and I seriously don’t know how I ended up there,” she said. After he wrestled her pants off, she stopped trying to fight. “I figured it will be better for me if I pretend that, um, I’m going along with it,” she told the police. “I kind of just blanked out.”

Afterward, Esparza cried into her pillow. Ramirez asked if he could see her again. She said no, and he left. Esparza went the next day to see a college nurse and got a morning-after pill. She told the nurse she’d been “date raped,” but the nurse, according to what Esparza told investigators, didn’t suggest making a police report. Neither did a professor Esparza said she talked to about the rape, when she burst into tears as she tried to explain why she’d missed a deadline for class.

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and

Slate said:

Silva said that a few weeks before the murder, toward the end of March, Ramirez had come home and told him that he’d been in the dorm room of a girl by that name. Silva had been lying on his bed, and Ramirez grabbed the cuffs of his pants and yanked them off. “That’s the way I took the pants off the girl I had sex with,” Silva remembered him saying.

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This story I think highlights the fine line inherent in escalating to sex that happens in many, many cases. Much of the time when you escalate with resistance, or even with a girl who's a little drunk or sometimes sleeping, she'll be thrilled you did because your read was right and she's very into you and that's exactly what she wanted… or, she might have been on the fence, but ends up deciding she enjoyed the experience and it was a good one. If you go too far and your read is not correct, however, you may have inadvertently and totally unintentionally just committed rape. And frankly, juries don't care whether you intended to or not, and neither does a lynch mob of the girl's angry friends, as Gonzalo Ramirez found out.

Finally, a word about signals: as men, we're hardwired to presume that things women are doing are for our benefit. If a girl's wearing sexy clothes, we figure she's trying to tempt us. If she's talking with us, we figure she likes us. If she's smiling at us, we read it as flirting. Sometimes these reads are accurate, but sometimes they are not. A number of laboratory studies have shown that time and again, when women think they are just being friendly and nice to men, those same men interpret those same women's words and actions as flirtation and sexual interest. Now, this is evolutionarily adaptive, since generally speaking, it's better to assume a girl's into you and end up wrong and then you've just wasted a little time than it is to assume a girl isn't into you and end up wrong, and then you've missed out on a chance to pass on your genes... but when it comes to sex, it's time to set aside your biases and make certain your read is correct.

So, when it comes to the endgame of physical escalation, don't assume a girl is without a doubt interested in copulating with you. Don't just read signs and decide for her - don't decide anything for her. Invite her, verbally, and let her come with you. If you find yourself escalating in bed with a girl who might be asleep, don't trust that she's going to wake up just because you're kissing her. Instead, give her commands, and make sure she's awake. "Turn on your side," "Take off your shirt," "Take your panties off." The more ambiguous her interest in you has been, the more you need to back off escalation yourself and rely on giving her commands and giving her the chance to acquiesce or decline. If she declines, obviously, especially if it's a clear decline, your read on the situation may not have been as good as you thought it was.

Rape is really not a black-and-white area. It's very, very gray. The news media and feminist sites like to portray is as clear night-and-day, as if consensual sex is some emotionless, logical agreement, or some kind of romantic, resistance-free encounter, even as Hollywood and the romance novels that women themselves love so much quite often depict sex as an attractive man struggling to overcome a woman's walls of resistance and finally give her what she so wants but must fight against until he gives to her. This makes it especially difficult for an inexperienced guy who doesn't know how to read women so well yet to know where the line is and whether he's crossing it or not; women can be very vague, and men's abilities to read women can take time to develop.

Do yourself and the women you sleep with a favor: until you are extremely good with women, and probably not even then, don't assume anything. Only escalate in situations where everything is crystal clear; and, don't do anything that feels "sneaky" with a girl. Leave it bright, open, and easily shut down by her if she so desires. Always make sure she has an "out", and always make sure she feels free from pressure about taking that out if she wants to. You will lose a few lays with girls who are willing but difficult that you otherwise could have had by doing this, but you will also avoid tricky situations that can end up emotionally scarring another human being… and/or end with you experiencing rape yourself, repeatedly, from a big tattooed man with an HIV infection during your decade-long stay in the federal penitentiary system, after a judge and jury hand you a rape conviction.

For her sake (and the sake of your freedom from imprisonment / preservation of your anal virginity), I'd advise you to be extra careful with escalation that you really are giving girls what they want… and not what you ASSUME they want. Seduction is about seducing a girl's mind, more than anything else - it's about making her want to do something, desire it, be willing for it, lusting for it, and craving it. Make sure that when you get to the part where you give it to her, you haven't neglected to make her want it, too.

Chase

i think that guy was taking gamblers 'stealth seduction' a little too far

Thank you, thank you, thank you Chase. I cannot stress how glad I am that you addressed all the points I wanted to make clear but could not do in a controlled fashion.

When making any assumption, make sure it is logical and rational.

A = she is looking my way
B = she likes me
C = she is looking at her friend

"If A, then B" (If "she is looking my way, then she likes me) is not always true. There is the possibility for "If A, then NOT B" because of the case "If A, then NOT B because C". That does not mean that "If A, then B AND C" is not true either.

Another example:

A = she is speaking and looking in my direction
B = she wants to talk to me
C = she wants to talk to her friend

"If A, then B" (If "she is looking my way, then she likes me) is not always true. There is the possibility for "If A, then NOT B" because of the case "If A, then NOT B because C", where the friend was behind you but you did not know it.

Example 3
A = girl is being mean and rude
B = She is horny
C = She genuinely wants you to go away because she failed an exam, fired from her job, a piano fell on her car, and a jet crashed into her home

For the purposes of seduction, we usually know that girls are horny when they are acting mean to us. BUT, that does not rule out C. The thing is we persist to see if she will comply and if she doesn't after about 3 strikes, we back out gracefully.
Where is my reasoning coming from? It comes from information from the site that has been TESTED to be VALID by someone with CREDIBILITY as well as others who have peer-reviewed these articles as well.

In my original post I made many assumptions. Could I have been wrong about each and everyone one of them, yes. Why? Because the information wasn't clear. I can make as many assumptions as I want based on the framing of the situation but at the end of the day, the only person who really knows the validity of what happened are the parties present at the moment of event, so I cannot drop judgement. All I am saying is, we need to assess ourselves and our actions to make sure that we do not become so entranced by the big picture that we become blind to pieces that lead to its creation. Do not forget about the other parties feelings in your pursuit of sex. Yes, sex will make a woman more attracted to you, but sex does not if she didn't feel good coming into it and after it.

Seduction is a dance. The male may lead his partner, who may be more inexperienced, he can't expect her to move at the same speed or make the same movements as a dancer with much more skill and finesse. Be aware of such things and tailor your actions to the situation.

In the end, I guess mistakes do need to be made. I am just sad some are harder to forget than others. At least they will not be forgotten and will forever be burned into our memories to serve as a reminder for our follies when we were unwise, inexperienced, fools.

Again, thank you Chase for taking action.
- The Wise Fool

EDIT:

i think that guy was taking gamblers 'stealth seduction' a little too far

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That's a good way to put it. I'd say he didn't know any better since at the end of it all he was confused.

He needed the GC article on social calibration =/

Thanks for posting this and deleting the original post. I regret replying on the original thread, but I was trying to probe more content out and give him the benefit of the doubt.... But in reality, it's pretty clear what truly happened.

I'm wondering if a link to this thread should be added to the FR rules thread.

It's interesting how two different mindsets can occur from a similar idea: "I am irresistible, and she is giving me LMR."

For example, with my FR with the conservative Chinese girl, I kissed her with a spontaneous kiss. I wasn't 100% sure if she wanted it or not, but we were in bed together, both mostly sober (only one glass of champagne each), and one arm was around her with my other hand holding hers while watching a movie. She had accepted all of this previous compliance. (In fact, this is probably too much.) I then held strong eye contact, used my bedroom voice in soft whispers, and began to place my body and face closer to her. Next, I tried the romantic kiss several times, and she refused with soft giggles. She flat out refused. Will persisting be a rape-kiss? Let's find out....

Finally, I forced the spontaneous kiss. She didn't expect it. After the kiss, I immediately pulled my head back and did not continue to escalate. I gave her space and a chance to leave, slap me, or yell. She did none of these. Truly, I don't think she actually wanted the kiss 100%; she had refused several of my romantic kisses! Even with body language and non-verbals, it's a conversation. You make a move and then you give her a chance to make a move back. A month later, I asked her about the date (had come up in conversation), and she said that she had actually wanted me to kiss her the entire time, but was afraid that it would have lead to sex....

Why did it not lead to sex? Being from a place of inexperience, while we were making out (after warming her up with the spontaneous kiss and realizing that she had non-verbally agreed to more), I began to caress her butt. Whenever I caressed her butt, she removed my hand promptly and said a clear "no." If I had been more experienced, I think I could have persisted to sex if I had caressed her body in a more natural, progressive way (i.e., cheeks=>shoulders=>arms=>outer thighs=>inner thighs), but I was coming from a place of inexperience. She had given me a clear response back to my non-verbal touching. I think guys can get too caught up on it being about ourselves; because in fact, that's what Approach Anxiety is. Approach Anxiety is all about ourselves, and when we overcome it, we begin to think, "Is it all about my own flaws?" We forget that after Approach Anxiety everything is a two-way street, even if no conversation occurs. It's not if I do X I will achieve Y. It's if I do X and she responds with Y then I will achieve Z.

In this case, if I had persisted to sex with my very poor touching routine, I'm sure that she would have hated me. It would have been rape, and she would have called the cops the next day. I was doing it wrong, and she showed me. But, if I had done things right, I truly believe it would have been (amazing) consensual sex.

Why did I not keep persisting to, ultimately, rape? This goes back to my earlier point. I had built up my mental game to think the following: "I am irresistible." Therefore, if she didn't want this sexual prince, I knew that another woman would, and she would love it and deserve it more. Ultimately, persisting to rape is a mental model of "this is my only shot" and a lack of an abundance mentality -- besides a lack of caring/morals/ethics/etc. Even though a man may think that he's more alpha for rape, he's in fact the opposite. He thinks that women are scarce; he's insecure of his own abilities.

There are plenty of women. There is no reason to rape. If a girl doesn't accept, then that's a big loss for her, and a huge win for another girl.

If you begin to think about raping women (for serious and not as apart of some fantasy with a girlfriend), then meet more women. Read Chase's article/thread on how to be more compassionate/non-judgmental.

In short, even if no verbal communication is occurring, non-verbal communication through touching, eye contact, and spontaneous kisses are a conversation. And, if you feel like you have to force a women (crossing the line of just being a charming guy that's persisting to sex), you need to meet more women and you need to improve your skills.

PinotNoir said:

Thanks for posting this and deleting the original post. I regret replying on the original thread, but I was trying to probe more content out and give him the benefit of the doubt.... But in reality, it's pretty clear what truly happened.

I'm wondering if a link to this thread should be added to the FR rules thread.

It's interesting how two different mindsets can occur from a similar idea: "I am irresistible, and she is giving me LMR."

For example, with my FR with the conservative Chinese girl, I kissed her with a spontaneous kiss. I wasn't 100% sure if she wanted it or not, but we were in bed together, both mostly sober (only one glass of champagne each), and one arm was around her with my other hand holding hers while watching a movie. She had accepted all of this previous compliance. (In fact, this is probably too much.) I then held strong eye contact, used my bedroom voice in soft whispers, and began to place my body and face closer to her. Next, I tried the romantic kiss several times, and she refused with soft giggles. She flat out refused. Will persisting be a rape-kiss? Let's find out....

Finally, I forced the spontaneous kiss. She didn't expect it. After the kiss, I immediately pulled my head back and did not continue to escalate. I gave her space and a chance to leave, slap me, or yell. She did none of these. Truly, I don't think she actually wanted the kiss 100%; she had refused several of my romantic kisses! Even with body language and non-verbals, it's a conversation. You make a move and then you give her a chance to make a move back. A month later, I asked her about the date (had come up in conversation), and she said that she had actually wanted me to kiss her the entire time, but was afraid that it would have lead to sex....

Why did it not lead to sex? Being from a place of inexperience, while we were making out (after warming her up with the spontaneous kiss and realizing that she had non-verbally agreed to more), I began to caress her butt. Whenever I caressed her butt, she removed my hand promptly and said a clear "no." If I had been more experienced, I think I could have persisted to sex if I had caressed her body in a more natural, progressive way (i.e., cheeks=>shoulders=>arms=>outer thighs=>inner thighs), but I was coming from a place of inexperience. She had given me a clear response back to my non-verbal touching. I think guys can get too caught up on it being about ourselves; because in fact, that's what Approach Anxiety is. Approach Anxiety is all about ourselves, and when we overcome it, we begin to think, "Is it all about my own flaws?" We forget that after Approach Anxiety everything is a two-way street, even if no conversation occurs. It's not if I do X I will achieve Y. It's if I do X and she responds with Y then I will achieve Z.

In this case, if I had persisted to sex with my very poor touching routine, I'm sure that she would have hated me. It would have been rape, and she would have called the cops the next day. I was doing it wrong, and she showed me. But, if I had done things right, I truly believe it would have been (amazing) consensual sex.

Why did I not keep persisting to, ultimately, rape? This goes back to my earlier point. I had built up my mental game to think the following: "I am irresistible." Therefore, if she didn't want this sexual prince, I knew that another woman would, and she would love it and deserve it more. Ultimately, persisting to rape is a mental model of "this is my only shot" and a lack of an abundance mentality -- besides a lack of caring/morals/ethics/etc. Even though a man may think that he's more alpha for rape, he's in fact the opposite. He thinks that women are scarce; he's insecure of his own abilities.

There are plenty of women. There is no reason to rape. If a girl doesn't accept, then that's a big loss for her, and a huge win for another girl.

If you begin to think about raping women (for serious and not as apart of some fantasy with a girlfriend), then meet more women. Read Chase's article/thread on how to be more compassionate/non-judgmental.

In short, even if no verbal communication is occurring, non-verbal communication through touching, eye contact, and spontaneous kisses are a conversation. And, if you feel like you have to force a women (crossing the line of just being a charming guy that's persisting to sex), you need to meet more women and you need to improve your skills.

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Pinot, that sounds like a quite different situation.
You were in bed, already intertwined with each other, it was quite safer to assume in that situation she's into you. Unless you do that with most of your friends

Yes, I was just trying to give an example to illustrate some of Chase's points, like about having compliance built-up prior. And, also, how it could have been consensual sex if I had done things correctly, or she could have viewed it as rape if I had forced my way into her clumsily. Even great compliance doesn't mean it's a 100%. Like I said, you can't expect to do X and get Y, like most logically-minded guys think, because there is another player. Instead, it's like a game of chess. And, if you make the right move, then checkmate (sex with her), but if you make the wrong move or she makes an even better move, then you lose. Just because a girl has agreed to be in your place and kiss you, doesn't mean you can force your dick into her and that she'll view it as consensual; it just means that you'll have a much better chance and that you can be a bit more aggressive than with a stranger.

Unrelated, I wanted to make a point on being alpha and rape that I said in my earlier post. In the old days, it would have been alpha to rape. But, nowadays it's not. For example, if I want to be CEO of my current company, I could kill the current CEO and then rape his wife. Early in our evolution, this would have been alpha. Nowadays, I would just be viewed as some sick man and thrown into prison. The idea of alpha has evolved itself.

PinotNoir said:

Unrelated, I wanted to make a point on being alpha and rape that I said in my earlier post. In the old days, it would have been alpha to rape. But, nowadays it's not. For example, if I want to be CEO of my current company, I could kill the current CEO and then rape his wife. Early in our evolution, this would have been alpha. Nowadays, I would just be viewed as some sick man and thrown into prison. The idea of alpha has evolved itself.

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Not yet man, you first needed to have the respect of the other higher status -execs- guys to attempt a coup.

Without any prior respect, you'd still be considered -and treated like- crazy to kill the leader.
Otherwise the benefits of acting outside of the social norms would outweigh so much the risk -zero in your example- to such an extent that no society would have ever started.


That's the difference between a putsch, coup d'etat or call it the way you want and a simple assassination. The first guy becomes emperor, head of government or call it the way you want and the second becomes... A condemned pariah.