Mystery (the pua) fucking sucks

Drck

Cro-Magnon Man
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It only shows you that women will go with virtually anything, or rather anybody who shows interest in them - who is able to approach them, talk to them, have some fun, and show interest in sex... Which makes the whole PUA and even seduction obsolete...
 

Chase

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That was some pretty bad conversation.

A few things to keep in mind though...

One, his analysis at the start (i.e., how bad it looks if you open a girl, then someone comes charging in and pulls her away) is spot on. The video editor mocking him over this looks inexperienced in nightlife venues (or maybe he's just tryhard: "Dude, I never lose girls ever, no matter WHAT happens, lol!!1!").

Two, the girl he spends most of the video with he used as a pivot (i.e., girl he uses to meet other girls). He was not interested in her. Which probably explains the bad conversation... very hard to have an interesting conversation with someone you're not interested in. The girl was interested in HIM: she opened him, hung around giggling breathlessly whenever he said anything, stood out in space in an awkward position to talk to him, and didn't leave for a long while despite his boring, circular conversation. He just used her to build preselection and chat up other chicks though.

Three, with the blonde... she aggressively touches him, and he responds well (taking her hand off and telling her 'whoa'). If you let girls get grabby on you like this without asserting yourself in any way, it craters their respect (and, thus, interest) in you. However, with this girl, he was too low attainability; after he made that move, she immediately turned to talk to her girlfriend to rebuild her value, which means she felt rejected. Erik makes moves like this designed for "club 10s" who have big egos and only get more intrigued when a high value guy pushes them off, but with a cute blonde like this who doesn't have that ego it's too much. If he wanted her (I don't know if he did or not), the best move would've been to pull her back in as soon as she started talking to her girlfriend: "Okay, hey, come here. You wanna know what this is? Okay, come closer." Then compliment her on something once she's closer and ask her about herself.

They probably should not have published this clip. Erik has good game and has had plenty of very attractive women. But everybody sucks sometimes. Unfortunately with public image, if you publish a few good clips of you doing awesome, guys will think you're a PUA god. But if you instead publish a few bad clips where the conversation is bad and you don't get any clear good results, guys will think you suck.

Any guy who's good is awesome sometimes, and awful other times - that's just how it goes.

Chase
 

GeneralFap

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Ok I agree that anyone can have an off night sometimes but damn this was just awful. he commits some very rudimentary mistakes like talking about himself too much and talking about mundane crap. Also, it seems like hes trying way too hard to sound articulate. He sounds like a robot. And I feel this is his typical way of talking. I wouldnt consider him anywhere near the top.
 

Cacc

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Chase,

Were you the first guy to really talk about seducing women in a natural way and fundamentals?
 

Ree

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i agree with chase,mystery is good...plus he is from another time.....dissing mystery is like boeing or lockheed martin dissing the wright brothers
 

Chase

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Cacc-

Cacc said:
Chase,

Were you the first guy to really talk about seducing women in a natural way and fundamentals?

Ah... you want a history lesson? :)

Sebastian (Dimitri) Drake and Vin DiCarlo introduced natural game in 2004 I think it was. Sebastian was a natural cold approach day gamer who got heavily interested in PUA. He studied a lot of Mystery Method in particular (it was kind of the only game in town at the time). Liked a bunch of it. Rejected a bunch of it. Vin was his first student. Vin codified a lot of Sebastian's methods and I think coined the term "natural game." Whenever he talked about learning from a super talented natural who pulled off ridiculous stuff with girls, he was talking about Sebastian.

They launched theApproach together, which was the first coaching company that taught natural game. All the other companies followed Mystery's lead and taught routines. (there were of course naturals in the seduction community from the very beginning; guys like Razorjack, MrSex4uNYC (eliciting values), and Nathan Szilard's friend who developed GM style, for instance)

RSD smelled the changing winds and retooled itself as a "natural game company" in I think 2007 or 2008. While it still continued to teach students routines. The Blueprint was Owen Cook's big huge "natural game" product in 2007 or 2008 that loads and loads of guys swore changed their games and lives forever... I haven't gone through it but from what I've heard from other guys it was essentially repackaged Mystery Method. (which I mean makes sense; Owen was a student of Mystery's and lived with the guy for a time)

I semi-introduced fundamentals. The term "fundamentals" is mine; Sebastian talked about these loads during the first workshop I took with him and Vin in 2006, but he rolled it all into "value" and they didn't focus on them outside the workshops. Guys would talk about being well-dressed or getting in shape or having a sexy walk on the seduction forums. Some guys would push stuff like this but for most guys it was an after thought. I think the coaches (even Vin and Sebastian) just figured this stuff was too basic and not "sexy" and that guys who wanted to buy stuff all wanted techniques, so they focused on that. When most of the routine guys talked about "value" they mostly meant value you conveyed about yourself verbally: DHVs (displays of higher value; things you said / stories you shared about yourself that made you look cool), for instance.

The basic concept of fundamentals was all there in Sebastian's version of "value" though. I just made it a more central pillar of dating success. Sebastian was the most fashion-conscious guy in operation in seduction back then. Exceptionally well-dressed. Great clothes, great hair, great facial hair. Even still, it didn't really sink in with me for a few years. They went into it, but I guess I just focused more on the tech and on taking action. Which is what most guys do. And Sebastian never really hounded me about fixing my fundamentals, which I probably would've appreciated (I remained a pretty terrible dresser and in bad shape, with an awful hairstyle, for about 2.5 years after that workshop).

I circled back around to "value" in 2008, in the form of better clothes, being in better shape, better nonverbals, and it exploded my results. And I started to realize every guy I met who was very good with women had all this stuff on point. So I considered it "fundamental" to success with women and started to call it that: these are the fundamentals, and you should work on them FIRST. Guys have all kinds of different styles they use to successfully get girls, but one thing they pretty much all have in common is they are excellent in this group of stuff, so let's call that stuff "fundamental", since it's essential/required.

Vin left theAppraoch acrimoniously in 2007. Sebastian ran it by himself for a year but closed it down in 2008 after a difficult personal stretch where he just couldn't coach anymore. So GC became its spiritual successor. I set up a page with Sebastian to serve as a redirect/landing page for folks coming from theApproach so the folks who used to hit that site would have somewhere new to call home. And our first forum on GC was a private forum for all the old theApproach alumni, which gave me experience running a forum. It was quite active for a while, but has been dead since 2012. Guys just move on after a while. I started this forum at the end of that year as a replacement. The little spinning circle things to indicate new posts on the boards here come from the old theApproach forum (was one of the design elements I really liked of that place).

But yeah, I mean, value, attainability, compliance... that's all Sebastian tech. GC was the only place still talking about it after theApproach went down. I refined theApproach's definition of "value" into fundamentals. And originated a bunch of other stuff, like deep dives (after having too many conversations where I could not figure out what to talk about next with a girl), chase frames (from a couple naturals I knew), my process for first-date sex, date compression, pre-opening. The "game + fundamentals" dichotomy is mine. A focus on natural conversation is 100% me; nobody anywhere talked about having good natural conversation until I opened that discussion up (I always thought it was the strangest thing; what do all these other guys even do the whole time with girls?). And I think you will see the model I introduce in One Date gradually become a seduction community standard as it filters out over time, based on how well it's tested with some of the guys I've given early access to. That'll be all me. But "natural game" as a concept is 100% Vin and Sebby. And VAC is all Sebby (I mean, Mystery talked about "value" before Sebastian. But Sebastian completely retooled it from "value you demonstrate to her you have" to "value she can just see immediately"). "Move faster" is Sebastian. We owe a lot to theApproach, and Vin and Sebastian in particular. I've met a lot of top guys in seduction and Sebastian remains unquestionably in my opinion the sharpest, most brilliant, and most creative mind this space has seen.

It's a pity he didn't hang around in the field. But his contributions in the 3-4 years he taught were awesome.

Chase
 

Cacc

Space Monkey
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Love it. its like a piece of unwritten history only few men know.

Chase, everything youve done for the fellow man is truly incredible. there are very few men out there like you.

Sincerely
 

Ree

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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hey..thanks for the history....while we are here i would really appreciate any information about ross jeffries.....i personally feel like he is a charlatan ,what do you guyys think about his nuero linguistic programming?
 

Chase

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He's definitely a kooky guy. The Will Ferrel role in Wedding Crashers was a complete parody of Ross Jeffries. I laughed the whole way through that when I watched it again after becoming familiar with Ross. "Holy shit, Will's parodying Ross!" Tom Cruise's character in the 1999 film Magnolia from what I've heard was based on Jeffries too, though I haven't seen the movie.

Anyway... NLP is legit. It's not something to rely on and be a one-trick NLP pony. But if you use it situationally it's powerful stuff. Of the guys who write on GC, Alek and I both use it. You can put women into almost hypnotic trances with it, and it's pretty quick to do. Once you have a girl in a trance you can influence her emotions much more easily. I do a little NLP in the welcome video for One Date, actually. When I did it on the set, I didn't announce in advance what I was going to do, but after I finished it our director and cinematographer both said wow and talked about how it had a strong emotional effect on them. (which surprised me a little since they weren't the intended audience, but hey... I guess that's NLP for you. It's really just a way of using voice tone and mental imagery to affect other people's emotions) A lot of naturals and talented orators use NLP principles naturally; they just sort of figure them out on their own as they go.

Chase
 

Ree

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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wow..sensei........reminded of all the things i am still yet to learn
 

Kaelos

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Chase said:
NLP is legit. It's not something to rely on and be a one-trick NLP pony. But if you use it situationally it's powerful stuff.

Which books/authors/courses would you recommend for learning NLP?
 

BetaBoy

Space Monkey
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Mystery has issues reading social ques. I once knew a guy who worked for him and he had the same issues. Seems to me they are in their own worlds.
 

BetaBoy

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Chase said:
He's definitely a kooky guy. The Will Ferrel role in Wedding Crashers was a complete parody of Ross Jeffries. I laughed the whole way through that when I watched it again after becoming familiar with Ross. "Holy shit, Will's parodying Ross!" Tom Cruise's character in the 1999 film Magnolia from what I've heard was based on Jeffries too, though I haven't seen the movie.

Anyway... NLP is legit. It's not something to rely on and be a one-trick NLP pony. But if you use it situationally it's powerful stuff. Of the guys who write on GC, Alek and I both use it. You can put women into almost hypnotic trances with it, and it's pretty quick to do. Once you have a girl in a trance you can influence her emotions much more easily. I do a little NLP in the welcome video for One Date, actually. When I did it on the set, I didn't announce in advance what I was going to do, but after I finished it our director and cinematographer both said wow and talked about how it had a strong emotional effect on them. (which surprised me a little since they weren't the intended audience, but hey... I guess that's NLP for you. It's really just a way of using voice tone and mental imagery to affect other people's emotions) A lot of naturals and talented orators use NLP principles naturally; they just sort of figure them out on their own as they go.

Chase
no offense, I wouldn’t emulate mystery as it seems it would lead to a bad outcome.
 

Chase

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BetaBoy said:
Mystery has issues reading social ques.

This is true from what I've seen, yeah. Believe he has Asperger's. Many of the early PUA gurus did. Which is also perhaps why old school PUA was so jargon-heavy and formulaic (not to mention why there were so many autism-tier debates over trifles).

Still a brilliant guy. But certainly you can be much more socially attuned than Mystery is (I mean, assuming you do not have Asperger's).

Chase
 

BetaBoy

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Chase said:
BetaBoy said:
Mystery has issues reading social ques.

This is true from what I've seen, yeah. Believe he has Asperger's. Many of the early PUA gurus did. Which is also perhaps why old school PUA was so jargon-heavy and formulaic (not to mention why there were so many autism-tier debates over trifles).

Still a brilliant guy. But certainly you can be much more socially attuned than Mystery is (I mean, assuming you do not have Asperger's).

Chase
nope been tested. But yeah he is pretty smart, just wish the dude would put it to better use though. Have a 2nd cousin who is diagnosed and he manages to come up with really great ideas that are practical and useful. I’ve studied the Myers Briggs, it seems more common towards extroverted intuition where they automatically think introverted intuitive types are functionally psychotic people. That’s not the case in the later though because that cognitive function is the only direct tie into the subconscious mind. As a ENTJ, I utilize it but it makes me to aware for my own good and generally makes me slightly skeptical.
 

Motiv

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I consider myself a sevant natural these days. Reading all the pick-up tech makes my head spin and honestly leaves me feeling a little depressed: so many dietails to remember, not to mention the coldness of human behavioral mechanics *shudder*.

But truth is truth. May as well fess up and learn before getting too old!

-M

P.S. Been experimenting lately with super direct game: i.e. suggesting ravishingly sex very early on with girls who show interest in me. As uncalibrated a move as this may be, I feel it saves wasting time on chicks who just want to string me along. Life is too short.
 

Motiv

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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It is extremely dumb to look at one example of a person stumbling and conclude they suck altogether. You are either a troll or just a dumb person.

I personally find it uplifting to observe flaws in great people. It brings them down to earth and gives me hope in myself.

-M
 

Motiv

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Clip is also very difficult to watch given the constant trolling pop ups on screen. It’s so distracting and negatively biased that no wonder the average viewer would disapprove of Mystery here.

Good thing we have Chase to dissect it (and I truly thank him), otherwise I probably would have written it off too.

-M
 

Space

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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I couldn't really follow what he was talking about. As I understand verbal communication varies by culture, I haven't been to America and I've found British girls to be a little more different than all other European girls. (Or maybe it's just because I'm reading stupid Roosh's stuff.)

But my one, most important observation regarding his nonverbal interaction with the first girl: more kino! At least I wouldn't stand a meter away from a girl I liked, but if it works for him, more power to him.

Mark Manson said Mystery is a very cool guy. For like a week or a month. Then all his stories get repeated because that's all he has. That's all he is. It's not my comment, it's Mark Manson's comment. I personally haven't spent more than a week or a month with Mystery. Zero minutes, exactly.
 
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