Yes, Monogamy Works



Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby Chase » Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:50 pm

Hey there,

My name's Chase Amante, and I'm 31 years old. I've kind of been in and out of marriage throughout my twenties but that's complicated and I won't go there. Suffice it to say I do pretty well with my dream girls but I have a hard time actually settling down... it's never the girls' faults, it's always mine.

I've been involved with the pickup artist community since late 2005, when I was 22 years old, and I've seen a wide variety of different points of views and perspectives here. One of the most common PUA view points that you will come across is "monogamy doesn't work."

Before I touch on this subject, a bit of background. I grew up in a moderately conservative Christian household. My mother took my sister and me to church every Sunday, I went to Catholic grade and high schools, and I was an altar boy from I think second or third grade through junior high. My father was agnostic who'd been arrested for smoking weed as a youth though, and my mother wasn't super strict, and had even had a period in her twenties when she'd "lost her faith" but came back to it later. So it wasn't like I was living with priests and nuns.

Anyway, my family started out lower middle class and by the time I was in high school had moved into upper middle class thanks to some inherited money and my father doing a good job at work and getting promoted. In my high school of 1,000+ students, most of the other students had similar families to mine: mother and father still married, family goes to church, that's about it. A few of them had divorced parents, and at least for me, this always seemed like some really weird, bizarre, unusual thing.

When I started rolling with guys from the ghetto and the trailer park after high school, I became a lot more exposed to people from broken homes, although once I was in university I was sort of insulated from this again. It wasn't until I started participating in the pickup community that I became re-exposed to this all over.

People in the pickup community have strong views. This is mostly because they're young. Nearly all of the guys you see espousing loud, firm views of "Do NOT do this!" and "ALL women are THAT!" are under the age of 30. This was something I recognized very early on into participating in PUA, and it always made me take PUA advice - especially PUA relationship advice - with a giant grain of salt.

As I spent more time in the community, I noticed a really amusing trend as well: guys vehemently swearing off monogamy all pairing off and getting married or settling into monogamous relationships. I can't tell you HOW many guys I saw do this... over, and over, and over again. All the guys who used to lecture me on how monogamy was impossible and didn't work and women were inveterate cheats and they themselves would never settle down... BOOM! Now they're in committed, exclusive, monogamous relationships. The one part that annoyed me about this though was that whenever I tried telling them, "Told you so," they'd never give me any satisfaction... they'd always come back with some grumbling excuse about how this girl was the exception or they weren't REALLY monogamous, just trying it out for a while, or something along those lines.

Many of my anti-monogamy friends are married now or have children.

But I'm not especially interested in talking about PUA here; what I'm more interested in is monogamy itself. The institution is going through a serious bumpy patch in the West; I don't know the stats for everywhere, but at least in the United States, something between 50% and 60% of marriages entered into today are destined to end in divorce. Of course, that also means 40% to 50% of those marriages will never end, until death does the couple part.

There's also the risk of cheating - which it's impossible to get reliable numbers on; I've seen numbers on anywhere from 4% to 40% of women having affairs, and anywhere from 7% to 60% of men do. I'd guess it's somewhere around 30% for each sex having an affair at SOME point in their lives; heck, my mother started sleeping with my father when she was still sleeping with her ex too (I was pretty surprised to learn this - Mom?). As for what the percentage of affairs occurring in marriage is... 15%? Lower? Assuming you don't include those marriages that are in their death spirals and months before divorce, that is. If you include THOSE marriages, well, sure, the rate's going to go up. But good, happy, healthy marriages? MUCH less. Much.

I don't know how many of you men out there have tried to pick up women who were not even ecstatic about their partners, but just content. I have (just out of curiosity; didn't close any of these gals); and I have friends who have. Know how easy it is? It's tough. Sure, you'll find a few freaks - the girls with high sex drives; the ones with high enough partner counts that sex is no big deal to them and their marriage vows are irrelevant; the really weak-willed emotionally needy girl who's a complete pushover around anyone who can push just the right buttons with her - but these women are outliers. Thing that happens in PUA though, is this: one guy meets an outlier. Shags her. Writes a report about it. Another guy meets another outlier. Shags her. Writes a report. A third guy does it. Pretty soon, you've got DOZENS of reports of guys sleeping with married women!

And what happens? Guys on PUA boards point at marriage and go, "Holy diamond wedding ring, look at how often married women hook up with dudes! NO ONE IS SAFE!"

This is a trend we see somewhere else, too. Know where? The media.

What's the media do? It shows you all kinds of ridiculous stories that make you terrified of crazy ass crap.

I'll be honest: when I go swimming in the ocean, I'm half scared to death a shark is going to bite my leg off. I think the odds are vastly higher that I'll end up in a car accident that shears my leg off first, but I have little fear of dismembering car accidents compared to the fear I have of sharks. Why? Two reasons:

1.) The media loves to tell me about sharks biting people's legs off, but never tells me about car accidents doing this, even though they happen a lot more, because car accidents are boring and no one cares, and

2.) In a car, I have some illusion of control, whereas in the water, I know if some curious shark wants to bite my leg off to see if it's as good as seal meat, I'm screwed

You get this same confirmation bias on PUA boards that you do in the media... a bunch of guys sharing their story about sleeping with a married chick, and pretty soon you start thinking every woman who's married is cruising for cock. Likewise, getting cheated on feels SCARY because you feel like you have no control... how do you prevent it? Chances are, if it happens, you'll probably never even know.

Or so you think.

One of the statistics that gets thrown around a lot about paternity is that "1 in 10 children born inside of a marriage is fathered by someone other than the woman's husband." Pretty scary stat, ain't it? Well, I took this at face value for a long time, but then I had to do some research on it, and guess what? It's a made up stat. Here're the real statistics, right from Wikipedia:

The rate of non-paternity is commonly quoted to be around 10%.[2][3][4] However, a 2005 scientific review of international published studies of paternal discrepancy found a range in incidence from 0.8% to 30% (median 3.7%), suggesting that the widely quoted figure of 10% of non-paternal events is an overestimate. In situations where disputed parentage was the reason for the paternity testing, there were higher levels; an incidence of 17% to 33% (median of 26.9%). Most at risk of parental discrepancy were those born to younger parents, to unmarried couples and those of lower socio-economic status, or from certain cultural groups.[5]


The median rate of misattributed paternity is 3.7%. If you're getting a DNA test to check on paternity because you think it may not be your kid, the chance is about one out of four it isn't. HOWEVER... among the population of men who are NOT getting DNA tests to check whether their children are theirs or not, the chance a kid isn't yours is sub-2%. You know what that says?

That says if your gal is getting boinked, you can probably tell it. If a kid isn't yours, you probably suspect this is the case. In my experience, you absolutely can tell - you may choose to go into denial rather than face the music, but there's always some part of you that knows, unless you're completely socially oblivious, which nobody here is.

Back to marriage.

Even though I've done my best to keep my head clear, I've STILL routinely had to deprogram myself from mindsets I've picked up either from being around too many men cynical about women (mostly online; my real life friends aren't that way) or just from picking up on my own. The thing with pickup is, you're going to pick up a lot of girls who are girls you're going to pick up; you're not going to pick up those girls you won't pick up. The brain has trouble building this into its mental models though; if you sleep with some married women, it's pretty easy for the brain to say, "Well, look, see that - how many married women have we gone on dates with? And we slept with ALL of them! Marriage obviously doesn't work."

Only, most married women don't go on dates. Most married women don't cruise the club scene. Most married women don't get blacked out drunk at hookup parties. Most married women don't have profiles on online dating sites.

If you let confirmation bias blind you - as it can when you're meeting lots of women and talking to other men who do - you can come to some pretty extreme views that are very far from representative of the general population. If you're not careful of what's happening in your head, you can start to believe you've got it right, too.

One thing I've learned though, is that the more absolutely certain someone is about something, the more wrong he probably is. We live in a very hazy world, and you have to have a SERIOUS set of blinders on to think anything is crystal clear. You'll see people running the gamut from totally inexperienced to extremely experienced with absolutist viewpoints - absolutism is most commonly adopted as a defensive mantle by individuals used to engaging in hard-fought philosophical debates with others. Absolutism is a bludgeon used to smack others into submission, rather than a discussion about the merits of any one thing versus any other.

Anyway, back to the main point: does monogamy work? Or does it not work?

The truth is, it works some of the time, for some people.

Does it work for everybody? No.

Does it not work for ANYbody? No there too.

In the West, settled, committed monogamy works for about half the people who try it every time. All things being equal, you've got a 50-50 chance of making it work.

But, again, not all things ARE equal. Because YOU are not just anyone... you are learning the ins and outs of women, dating, relationships, and social dynamics here. I have a great deal of faith in you... I would not be wasting my time here otherwise.

Making monogamy work over the long-term is about you and the partner. It's also about the cultural climate. Why are more people married in the suburbs than the city? Because cities are more conducive to being single: there are more options, more places to hide, more temptation. And there are more people married in rural environments than suburbs for exactly the same reason. Not to mention the fact that if you WANT a little temptation around, you're almost certainly going to prefer city to suburb, and suburb to country.

Why is a wild party girl who sleeps with bushels of men more likely to cheat on you and leave you for a guy with six-pack abs than a country church girl who's only been with a couple of men before? That's elementary, and it's all about screening. If you want a monogamous relationship, make sure you pick a girl who's suited for that role. Duh, right?

I'll conclude this post by saying the same thing I've been saying on PUA forums for 8+ years: if you think all women cheat and monogamy doesn't work, you've let your confirmation bias get the better of you.

Sure, lots of gals cheat. More at the tail end of relationships / marriages, but there's a small minority that do it throughout with abandon. Not many, but enough that you run into them from time to time and they can taint your view of monogamy if you're not careful. But lots of people commit murder, or do heroin, or have parrots as pets, too, but that doesn't mean everybody does. However, if you hang out around a bunch of junkies, killers, or parrot-owners, it can sure start to seem like everybody else in the world does it and this stuff is way more common than others realize.

Let's face it: 97.568% of men out there want to settle into monogamy at SOME point. It's simple biology... you just WANT it. And guess what? 98.1423% of women want this too. (I made those numbers up, but should be roughly around there) Sometimes it doesn't work out, but most of the men out there are doofuses, and 50% of them still somehow pull it off, and no, their wives aren't cheating on most of them.

Can you figure out how to pull off monogamy with the tools at your disposal here? Hells yeah you can. It's not that hard... people've been doing it for millennia, and they show no signs of stopping now.

There's nothing wrong with not wanting monogamy. Nothing wrong with being aware of the fact that cheating happens, and breakups / divorces happen, and these happen now more than they did in our grandparents' days. But to anyone who thinks a man is a fool for wanting monogamy, going for it, and getting it, I'd say... chill out. Most of the world wants it, and for pretty good reason. It has its perks. And it DOES work.

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Re: STICKIED: Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby Desert Eagle » Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:45 pm

Great in detail post. Monogamy can certainly work, and both people can be happy. I have a vice with keeping people in a relationship even when they would enjoy pursuing other things. After reading your articles on the various "drops" in a relationship, I've concluded that I'd likely be more happy with monogamy when it is ideal for my situation. If I'm staying in the same general area and I'm stable, it makes perfect sense to pair off with another girl. Never would I want to try and will her into staying when she has other, higher value opportunities. Doing so would suggest that she is my highest value opportunity, and I'd have to resort to manipulation to keep her from brighter pastures.

This may help to explain the increasing divorce rate. The relationship is great for the time, but as other opportunities present themselves, they begin to realize that higher value opportunities await. In the end, they'd rather pursue those opportunities, as they feel like the better situation.

Dont know if my reasoning is sound here. I just feel somewhat guilty for saying to a girl, "Yeah, I think we should be boyfriend and girlfriend too, and only see each other." Because at any moment where I'd know that either of us would be more happy, be it for the moment or for good, we'd restrain ourselves from enjoying better lives, so as to not hurt each other. Thus, I try to work on myself and get my mental model right in every possible scenario, so as to not be the guy that's boring, or abusive, or not interesting.

Fortunately, armed with the knowledge that attraction will fade as a function of time makes it feel like longterm monogamy is a relationship of diminishing returns for me. For others it may feel like the diminishing returns are worth it, as they cannot imagine a scenario where they could be happier, as other men/women don't give them the time of day. I'd rather live in a world where I don't feel obliged to maintain the happiness of one girl. Hearing the statistic "97.568% of men out there want to settle into monogamy at SOME point. It's simple biology... you just WANT it." makes me feel like an extreme outlier in this thinking. I want to be in a sexual relationship, but I'd rather it be free, and open with all these women, allowing them to come and go as they please, rather than instituting a contract that is perpetuated by society as being something that is, by nature, limiting both people to their ability to choose a path that they'd enjoy more.

Thoughts?
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Re: STICKIED: Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby Franco » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:48 pm

DE,

I don't disagree with your analysis here. The thing is, I think everyone wants something different. And even your level of experience with women (and your confidence in your ability to find one truly amazing one, or many outstanding ones) is going to effect what you ultimately want. But there is another factor to consider here that might supersede all of this: what you want can change with time.

This is something that I think is hard to grasp for anyone (as Chase actually mentions in the above post about people younger than the age of 30) because no one can really predict how they'll feel about something 10-20 years ahead of time. Your experiences change, your wants change, and your needs change. It's one of the reasons I don't write off things like polygamy, polyamory, OR monogamy. There might be a time period in my life where I'll be all about threesomes, and then two years later, I might want a girlfriend who will cook, laugh, and play video games with me. And then two years after that, maybe I'll even want a child! Who knows?!

So I think this element of unpredictability is what (especially younger) people need to understand here. It's why everyone should be open to the idea of any type of relationship with women because your life may change in the future to the point where you might want to try something different.

But anyway, Chase's point here is that monogamy works if you want it. As a matter of fact, ANY type of relationships you would like to have with women are possible given that you know how to implement them. Chase provides you with the tools to follow any path you would like, but the one thing we want to make sure of is that no choice of lifestyle HATES on another one. We've all made our decisions for our own reasons, and we all have our own beliefs about what is "ethical" or what is "moral," but ultimately, we are here to share what we like about the lifestyle we are attempting to achieve and helping others (who want to know more about it) to understand it. We are not here to argue why one lifestyle is BETTER than the other. It is counterproductive, and it leads to a stagnant environment rather than one that grows as a community.

Hopefully everyone can come to understand this so that we no longer promote negative behavior and negative emotions on the boards. There's a LOT of great, intelligent guys here, and we should use this fact to make everyone better.

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Re: STICKIED: Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby Desert Eagle » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:11 am

what you want can change with time.


Definitely true. The heart of my previous post beat to that tune. I suppose it's true.. Anything (within the physical limits of our universe, both known and unknown) is within the grasp of possibilities ;).
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Re: STICKIED: Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby ProblemSolving » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:35 am

I'm glad you posted this Chase. There seems to be a sentiment going around promoting the idea that, "boyfriend/husband objections are largely token and can circumvented if you just do XYZ". The success of overcoming these objections depends largely on the situation you find yourself in. A boyfriend objection means very little when the girl is drunk at the club, party, or traveling without her boyfriend. A big part of the appeal of clubbing, partying, and traveling sans her boyfriend is the validation she gets from new men. Therefore, a girl who puts herself in these situations is usually pretty open to the idea of cheating in these cases.

Conversely, approaching a girl during the day, hitting it off, then getting a boyfriend objection, pretty much means the set is dead. If she is generally content with the relationship, you're done. I've run into the boyfriends of girls I've approached previously and it really doesn't matter if you're better looking, sexier, have more cash, and better game than her boyfriend. She would be a fool to throw out all the time, energy, and emotions she invested in him for a guy she barely knows. Women know this, which is why it rarely happens.
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Re: STICKIED: Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby daviddreamer » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:27 am

Great post Chase.
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Re: STICKIED: Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby Little Jester » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:45 am

Cheers Chase,

This post is soo reassuring.

Must say, all around me, too many monogamous couples cheat, fight, break up/divorce and it kinda sucks to see all the drama after it, especially when kids are involved in the breakup. It even got to a point where I read about polygamy/polyamory and was like, hmmm yeah that actually makes sense if I look around me. But then there was a part of me that was more like, 'all good, but I really want to devote my energies and share life experiences with one person I care a lot about. That's just more fitting for myself. I simply don't want poly whatever'.. This got to some point I actually got afraid that what I wanted (mono), might not match up with what the world maybe actually secretly wanted, if social pressure was removed (poly)... It didn't sit right with me, but I almost accepted it.. That is, until I got in my current relationship.

I'm 32 now and only in my first monogamy. I talk with my girl about how (and why) all these monogamous relationships around us are failing, including close friends, their peers, co workers, whatever, cause she is bothered by it too, looking at her friend circles and she even experienced a 4 year fail of a relationship herself before too. Lucky both she and I have parents who both of these are couples that are happily married for over 30 years, so both of us have example monogamy relationships close to us that prove it indeed can work... And I keep telling her that too, whenever she fears we might break up for whatever silly and yet unknown reason in the future:
"Look at our parents," I tell her, "see it can work! We just have to do our best for ourselves and each other". And then we'll do this "team" gesture we have, that will make other ppl puke if we'd do that in public, but yeah :P

I purposed it as a little game to my girl that we can prove to all these other ppl from failing monogamous relationships, that it is possible to make it work in a happy, for both of us satisfying ways. I have good faith in that too. Not that I take my girl for granted, but I feel we have a good chance, given how our relationship is already evolving with good talks about our wants, needs and goals, and both of us self improving / building each other up / supporting each other and having clear, short and long term goals laid out that we want to complete together.

Compared to a previous 'wild' period in my life where I was hooking up with 2 or 3 new girls on average each week... Well, that period was fun times, sure, but this monogamy with this kind of girl I'm with now, is simply more awesome and meaningful for me. Fits the lifestyle I want to lead much better.

So yeah, happy to read this reassuring post that the path I'm walking on right now, is indeed not as impossible as I initially thought it might be. And why should it. Go after what you want and work hard to get there.
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Re: STICKIED: Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby Jesse » Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:31 am

Chase has a lot of good arguments guys.

I'll add this one: Consider that 80% of new businesses fail in the first year; and 80% of the ones that survive the first year fail in the next 5 years. Does that mean you should never start a business?? Hell no! I've got friends who started a business and are now traveling the world passively making cash flow from it.

95% of people fail at sticking going to the gym.

95% of people fucking flat out fail at sticking with just about anything over time.

And so some 50% of marriages end in divorce. But the other 50% succeed. That's an incredibly high success rate when you look at it.

Monogamy is built into man's nature. No, it's not for everybody. There's a certain small percentage of men that just need more stimulation than others, and they can wait on it if they choose.

But even their dicks will eventually get limp with age and their energy will slow down, their priorities change, and monogamy will suddenly look very attractive.

It's perfectly NOBLE and cool and sexy to want an exclusive girlfriend and wife, and to go for it.
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Re: STICKIED: Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby Nova » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:02 am

I think anything can work under the correct circumstances.

I think one problem with monogamy is that people view it as forever as opposed to simply a long term relationship with a gal you really gel with. I think people should definitely be open to the idea of having a long term relationship with a girl that they are really attracted too, enjoy talking too and share similar outlooks and ideals with, particulary if those guys have nothing going on in their life potentially obstructing anything long term (such as learning the in-and-outs of dating, overly busy lifestyle, drinking problems etc etc) I mean providing all the boxes are checked why wouldn't you see this girl as part of your future? You could have the best years of your life with her.

Thats what its all about, your circumstances in life and whether a long term commitment with somebody would fit in.

Might be you end up spending five brilliant years with that girl, or fifteen or even fifty... In my opinion though, in most cases, eventually something usually gives and the couple begins to drift apart due to personality changes, lifestyle changes or just a longing to try something different, how long that takes nobody can say. Perhaps you happen to be with a girl that you really will love forever, who knows. What I think though is that you shouldn't view your commitment as a solidified, contractual, definitely-forever relationship, but view it as a more fluid arrangement that is working purely because the couple is in love with each other and shares similar values who have no need not to be together as opposed to the relationship existing because of social pressure to maintain the relationship.

Thats the thing for me, I don't believe that as human beings we are designed to do the same things forever and ever, eventually we get bored and feel the need for change and new experience.

I see life as more of a cycle then a linear progression of graduate, get a girlfriend, work your way up the coporate ladder, marry your gal, have 2.5 kids, retire, die. I believe people are coerced and almost hypnotized into this blueprint but I don't believe its what most people truely want. Everybody is so submissive to society that it basically takes control of our lives.

Its very simple for me, do what you feel. Meet a girl you really like? why not spend years together? But if things stop working even after trying to solve the issues, don't kid yourself and suffer in silence, split up and find another partner, or if you feel like it have some fun short term dating for a while, whatever. I don't believe there is any correct way to live life other then the way you feel like living it.

Marriage per-se is another issue entirely for me. I'm of the opinion that it is a slightly outdated tradition which values and perks are dated and not really pertinent in the west today. I think marriage can create many problems for men, particulary financially. Marriage in essence is all about subscribing to the forever belief 'till death do us apart' - I think it fails to recognize and consider how life particulary today actually plays out. I think more people would be better of having a long-term relationship but missing out on the diamond rings part. Thats just me though.

I think the worst thing you can do is fall trap to the extremities of dating ideologys and/or give into the pressure of societys ideas on how you should live your life, ie, that you absolutely must find a girl so that you can marry her or else your a failure or that monogamy is evil and you should never fall prey to its web of lies. There is no right way, just let things happen naturally. Don't try to force anything and don't try to maintain anything that obviously isn't working. Listen to you, and what you yourself want in this life right now. Embrance change and diversity. Might be that you never marry, may be you marry at 20, or 60, who cares.
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Re: STICKIED: Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby Marty » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:14 pm

Nova:

On such sensitive questions that depend so strongly upon personal preference, it is rare to find completely convergent opinions among different people, but I have to say that what you wrote so closely emulates my own standpoint that on reading it I felt as if I might have written it myself—within a hair's breadth, at least. A cycle, not a linear progression, is very much my own view too.

(Only, I slightly disagree with your assertion that marriage may cause financial problems. If anything, it is reputed to do the opposite, consolidating good lifestyle and economic habits; but other than that I am with you all the way!)

Now, our shared perspective inevitably gives rise to difficult decisions: not least, assuming a man wants at least some involvement in the upbringing of his children, how to reconcile that with doing what you feel... some compromises, maybe even sacrifices will be inevitable, perhaps in terms of the city or country you choose to live or the distance you are prepared to travel on a regular basis. That may limit your professional opportunities and if that was your financial point, I see where you are coming from. But these challenges should be weighed properly against the potentially very substantial benefits of NOT allowing a struggling relationship to drag on longer than it should.

That last is not a point of difference with the opinion you expressed, it is simply a recognition of the inevitable tension between seemingly contradictory objectives that has to be managed with good judgment by mature individuals.

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Re: STICKIED: Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby Nova » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:25 pm

Marty wrote:Nova:

On such sensitive questions that depend so strongly upon personal preference, it is rare to find completely convergent opinions among different people, but I have to say that what you wrote so closely emulates my own standpoint that on reading it I felt as if I might have written it myself—within a hair's breadth, at least. A cycle, not a linear progression, is very much my own view too.

(Only, I slightly disagree with your assertion that marriage may cause financial problems. If anything, it is reputed to do the opposite, consolidating good lifestyle and economic habits; but other than that I am with you all the way!)

Now, our shared perspective inevitably gives rise to difficult decisions: not least, assuming a man wants at least some involvement in the upbringing of his children, how to reconcile that with doing what you feel... some compromises, maybe even sacrifices will be inevitable, perhaps in terms of the city or country you choose to live or the distance you are prepared to travel on a regular basis. That may limit your professional opportunities and if that was your financial point, I see where you are coming from. But these challenges should be weighed properly against the potentially very substantial benefits of NOT allowing a struggling relationship to drag on longer than it should.

That last is not a point of difference with the opinion you expressed, it is simply a recognition of the inevitable tension between seemingly contradictory objectives that has to be managed with good judgment by mature individuals.

-Marty


Hey Marty, nice to hear from you. Elaborating on the potential financial issues of marriage that I mentioned, I was particularly referring to the after effects of divorce. Divorce law isn't my strong point though so I could have it all wrong, but I have read lots about guys getting screwed over during divorce proceedings etc.

About seeing things in a more fluid cyclic way as opposed to linear its nice to hear you think the same, it creates a much more free and less pressured life and really puts you in the drivers seat.
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Re: STICKIED: Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby Little Jester » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:03 am

Nova wrote:I have read lots about guys getting screwed over during divorce proceedings etc..


If you're a guy who does well for himself and come into a marriage with more to loose than her, then don't marry your girl in the classic split 50/50 after divorce...

If possible, put something together before agreeing to marry : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenuptial_agreement
Can save you in the long run, if things happen to go sour.

I personally keep everything gotten pre marriage and I won't let my girl benefit from my own business. Don't mind sharing 9 to 5 job incomes and stuffs bought from that,. but that's just me. Haven't looked at how to handle kids yet, since that isn't on the agenda for now, but will do later.
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Re: STICKIED: Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby ZacAdam » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:07 am

Hi Guys,

Talking about marriage, I hope the link Chase wrote in his post might interest you.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2679&p=12198&hilit=tiger+woods#p12198 (Tiger Woods Divorce and What i Found)

Zac
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Re: Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby Big Daddy » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:17 pm

I'm late, but I'm glad that I found this post. I'm not going to put my point of view on the table now, because as Franco mentioned, everyone's views changes over time. I won't talk about something that may happen 10 years from now and which I know nothing about, but I wanted to give feedback because it's something I always try to do as I feel it's an important thing to do.

I think it's brilliant how Chase bring this up, and I don't mean to be that one annoying motherfucker that sounds ungrateful all the time because I loved reading this post - I wish I have words to describe it better. But I couldn't help but notice that exactly what Chase tries to avoid in the beginning of the post, out of fear that the "settling down" thing would lose its focus throughout the post, I suspect, is something that I believe that would "dive" us into the settling down subject the most; When you say that settling down didn't pan out for you, Chase, you also mentioned that was because of you, and not the girls.

But why is that? You are an outlier among men regarding you skills with woman, wouldn't that make easier for you to settle down with an amazing girl? Was it because you were busy somehow, handling businesses, perhaps? I'm just trying to get a hold of why would make a man skilled with woman say it's his fault settling down with amazing girls.

I'm not asking this from a position of "you're contradicting yourself!" or "but I thought you said we were going to have a better chance finding a dream girl", but rather from informal conversation with something who has walked down the road I'm planning to walk and listening what enlightening thoughts he might have to share. I don't know how will I end up, I'll just figure it out when I get there, but I certainly know I'll be glad I read what you have to say anyways. I just think this is a pertinent and interesting topic to discuss, given the community we're part of :)

Also, are we going to see your book on relationships coming out somewhere in 2014?
Big Daddy

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Re: Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby lux7 » Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:22 pm

Yep, some people will never allow reality to get in the way of their beloved sweeping generalization of "all xyz are xyz".

Doesn't matter how real the millions of happy monogamous relationships are, there are still people who will swear it "never works".

Sometimes I think it's jealousy.
A very successful 1:1 relationship can make those people who couldn't manage it jealous, and I have especially seen it with women.
You had your heart broken and a hard time in keeping LTR? Easy way out: it's not just me, it just doesn't exist for anybody!
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Re: Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby ZacAdam » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:37 pm

Big Daddy,

Just my thoughts:

People who know their stuff (like Chase or anyone who knows what they talk about), usually don't tell exactly what they think. Because for a whole lot of different reasons. In my opinion, he answer this perfectly, pretty much "answering like a politician" with touches of personal thoughts.

Not saying Chase is manipulative, but It's like telling a girl that she is stupid. She will flip but importantly, society will flip (especially and precisely whiteknights). Make it worse, they are not aware and they think they are "right".

Doesn't win for anybody.

Zac
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Re: Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby ZacAdam » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:25 am

BUMP
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Re: Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby lostnumber » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:35 pm

Great post
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Re: Yes, Monogamy Works

Postby metalbird » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:17 am

Chase wrote: Suffice it to say I do pretty well with my dream girls but I have a hard time actually settling down... it's never the girls' faults, it's always mine.
Chase


This is what I can't comprehend, simply because my experiences have been so opposite. It must be nice to have your pick of your dream girls and have the luxury of casting them aside, saying, "It's not you, it's me". I'm only 25, but I've been primarily interested in monogamy for most of my life, with the exception of a two year period in my early twenties when I was just getting "good" with girls and wanted to see what was out there.

In my case, the last two girls I've seriously dated, I would have probably been happy to settle down with. The first dumped me after six months because she couldn't get over her wacky ex, who she's now happily dating again, having apparently convinced him to go to therapy or something. The second pursued me fiercely in the beginning and only convinced me to commit after great effort on her part, then broke up with me after four and half months basically because we were on very different levels in life -- I'm trying to better myself and she's still in that phase of "experience everything while avoiding anything remotely uncomfortable".

My point is, maybe neither of these girls were my "dream girl", but I certainly didn't decide to date either of them lightly, and I picked them out of quite a few other options. Maybe the way I feel is the way some of these girls Chase has cast aside feel -- "it's not you, it's me", they say. I kinda agree. Both of these relationships failed ultimately because of the girls' issues, not mine, if I may be so bold. Yet somehow I'm the one who seems to get shafted by the whole deal.

So what does this mean? Maybe monogamy works as long as you're the one who "has a hard time settling down?" As long as you're the one with the attachment issues, or the fear of intimacy, or whatever, you have the option of monogamy because the partners you choose are healthy enough to offer it when you aren't?

Maybe I need to start playing the part of "having a hard time settling down"; perhaps then monogamy will actually become an option for me. What a world we live in...
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