Shades of (Non)Monogamy



Shades of (Non)Monogamy

Postby Will KZ » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:03 pm

I recently finished a two year (mostly) monogamous relationship. I strayed a couple of times when girls threw themselves at me, but other than that I was faithful. Didn't looking for anything else - my skills became rusty (as I found out at the end of the relationship when I somehow struggled leading girls to bed in simple situations). I don't think my gf cheated, though it's possible that like me it could've happened once or twice, you never know.

There seems to be a trend in the seduction world towards non-monogamy, a few articles here from Michael Chief and a long series from Varoon Rajah (which I haven't read all of but which seem) largely based on Blackdragon's model. I suspect a large part of this trend is the fact that people want to live in large cities with first world (or close enough) amenities and opportunities, and that means dealing with women in large cities with Western mindsets.

The arguments in favour of nonmonogamy make logical sense to me, but, I'm not a Vulcan. I get jealous. It's calmed down as I've gotten older, in my younger days it took so much self-control to hide the jealousy since I knew showing it would not have the desired effect (though when girlfriends asked if I was jealous I would always admit it). There seems to be a lot of shaming language coming from the pro-polyamory crowd: (paraphrasing) "Are you not man enough to handle other guys fucking your girl?" and that sort of thing. Sure, I can handle it with girls I don't really care about, fuck-buddies and so on. But with girls I really like and am bonding with, no, I can't handle it, it hurts.

There's one sided-monogamy. I've tried it, I don't think it really works long-term without a serious power imbalance (and I'm not a Sultan). I agree with BD's take - "Either the relationships fails (usually meaning she leaves him), or the woman stays with him but cheats on him behind his back in an effort to either get back at him or to make things more “fair.” Often, the woman is prompted to do this by her Western female friends and family members." Interestingly, he goes on to say "it’s extremely common for women in MLTR’s and OLTR’s to not have sex with other men while you’re having sex with other women. In about 50% of my non-FB relationships, the woman wasn’t having sex with other men at all." - http://blackdragonblog.com/2018/01/01/c ... -monogamy/

That becomes, effectively, one-sided monogamy. But let's say I don't really believe in a fully open deal but hope to get this dynamic. I start a relationship that is purportedly open, but end it when the nonmonogamy stops being one-sided. A - it's dishonest and against my code. And B - it might work early on, but let's say a 3 year relationship has gone by with all one-sided nonmonogamy, and then one day she decides to take advantage of her freedom and have her fun. Am I going to end that relationship, throw away all that investment, just because my partner did something she believed she had my blessing to do? Probably not.

Then there are the purportedly monogamous relationships where the man and/or woman cheats, either regularly, sporadically, or with one or two "mistakes". BD argues that those are non-monogamous relationships, which is essentially true, but two people trying to stay faithful to each other and failing on occasion is a different model than two people with free reign to go fuck someone else every night.

Lastly, I'm not really interested in the low sex-drive virgin from the tiny village with the hardcore religious upbringing that so many manosphere tradcons have wet dreams over. The ones that supposedly would never even think of another man. I like high-energy (and typically high sex-drive) women (the happy ones, not the "victims" whose energy is devoted to defeating evil evil men).

One day I think I would like to settle down and have a family. So, as I see it, these are my options:

1 - Have a fully monogamous relationship with the intent of starting a family
Advantages: Jealousy is soothed, a tried and tested model, mostly what I want out of an ltr.
Disadvantages: Lower testosterone, shaky foundations (cheating on either side can lead to severe drama or the end of the relationship), reliance on one woman to meet all my needs, I'm not sure I can (or want) to stay faithful for 10 years or more.

2 - Have a fully open relationship with the intent of starting a family
Advantages: More freedom, potential higher testosterone from variety of women, maybe more compatible with types of girls I'm in to, harder to break up the union because of higher leeway, keep up seduction skills, keep partner on her toes.
Disadvantages: Jealousy may eventually poison me against my partner, potential lower testosterone from loser effect of partner sleeping with other men, may create sense of competition to outdo partner, may create too much work in chasing girls when I'd rather be focused on other things, lower patenity confidence (hopefully the world won't follow France and ban paternity tests, but you never know).

3 - Have a series of short-term monogamous or one-sided monogamous or fully casual relationships (the model of my relationships in my 20s)
Advantages: No jealousy issues, need for variety basically met, testosterone levels probably kept at reasonable level, won't get too rusty with women.
Disadvantages: Not really suited for longterm pair bonding or family rearing, kind of sad and lonely, may get harder to pull off with age - time will tell.

Looking at the list, for someone interested in starting a family, option 2 seems the best bet, though it has plenty of compromises. Option 3 is essentially a decision that having a family is too much work, it's probably where I'm still at, but I don't know if I'll still feel that way in 5-10 years. At least there's no biological clock ticking.

Any thoughts? Preferably based on personal experiences rather than theoretical posturing.
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Re: Shades of (Non)Monogamy

Postby kristian » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:24 pm

1 - Have a fully monogamous relationship with the intent of starting a family
Advantages: Jealousy is soothed, a tried and tested model, mostly what I want out of an ltr.
Disadvantages: Lower testosterone, shaky foundations (cheating on either side can lead to severe drama or the end of the relationship), reliance on one woman to meet all my needs, I'm not sure I can (or want) to stay faithful for 10 years or more.

2 - Have a fully open relationship with the intent of starting a family
Advantages: More freedom, potential higher testosterone from variety of women, maybe more compatible with types of girls I'm in to, harder to break up the union because of higher leeway, keep up seduction skills, keep partner on her toes.
Disadvantages: Jealousy may eventually poison me against my partner, potential lower testosterone from loser effect of partner sleeping with other men, may create sense of competition to outdo partner, may create too much work in chasing girls when I'd rather be focused on other things, lower patenity confidence (hopefully the world won't follow France and ban paternity tests, but you never know).

3 - Have a series of short-term monogamous or one-sided monogamous or fully casual relationships (the model of my relationships in my 20s)
Advantages: No jealousy issues, need for variety basically met, testosterone levels probably kept at reasonable level, won't get too rusty with women.
Disadvantages: Not really suited for longterm pair bonding or family rearing, kind of sad and lonely, may get harder to pull off with age - time will tell.

Looking at the list, for someone interested in starting a family, option 2 seems the best bet, though it has plenty of compromises. Option 3 is essentially a decision that having a family is too much work, it's probably where I'm still at, but I don't know if I'll still feel that way in 5-10 years. At least there's no biological clock ticking.

Any thoughts? Preferably based on personal experiences rather than theoretical posturing.


Ive been in all these situations the last 5 years, basically - being mostly in LTR with options on the side (either by cheating or having an open relationship).

From my own experiences, having a one sided relationship seem to be what works best. My temperament is of the jelaous kind as well. But in order to pull this off, you have to act as soon as possible with the girl. So if youre considering to convert a monogamous relationship to an open r, its gonna be messy and it will end. You have to start from scratch and seek out the right girl with the right temperament from the get go.

One thing to keep in mind, no one woman will be able to satisfy me 100 % and I believe this goes for you as well. Telling the girl that you cannot commit sexually to one woman as soon as possible (by the third date) was essential from my part. Mind I said "cannot commit sexually" and not "emotionally". Many girls crave the emotional faithfulness first and foremost as opposed to guys where the sex part plays a bigger part. So if you make it clear that you would be able to love just one woman but not able to fuck just her and she accepts that, then its game on.

Ive done this to different types of girls, but most seem to say "ok" and then do the opposite so the type of girl you choose is important as well. For me, where I am on my skills right now, nerdy, intelligent girls who doesnt seem to bother what society says seem to be the best bet. It seems like you can find these girls in STEM-jobs where guys are chumps and not not sexy.

At the same time, you have to be sexy enough for her to want to "share" you with other women. So there will always be a power imbalance in SMV, and thats okay, so long youre aware of that and treat her like a queen.

Ive been in an one-sided monogamy relationship for two years, and it doesnt bother her because I treat her well, and I am very discreet about my sexual escapades. So theres a "dont ask, dont tell"-policy here, altho I mention that I "share my love" once in a while just to remind her. However there are rules:

I dont allow myself to fall in love. These are mostly sexual relationships. Sometimes very shortlived FWBs.
I try to protect myself.
My sexual escapades doesnt affect her directly (ie. not spending time or me being abscent with my love).

In fact, having one sided ltr makes the sex so much hotter, as it keeps her on her toes. Besides, I dont need to be scared of getting lower testosterone at all.

I am 33, btw, and she is 28. We might have kids in a couple of years, so I might go monogamous if that happens. But I know, deep down, that I will stray from time to time. Thats for sure.

Shes been with me, from what Ive seen. But what do I know, she could have been sexual with other guys in this two year span, but theres not guarantee for anything, right? As long as she still delivers in bed and acts feminine around me (which are my only two requisites in a relationship) its still going strong.

I dont know if that helps. But I am not the guy to openly share my main woman and I dont like decieving someone (by cheating behind their back), so I choose this solution. And it works because I did things right and chose the right woman.
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Re: Shades of (Non)Monogamy

Postby Will KZ » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:00 pm

Hi Kristian,

Thank you for replying. I guess not too many people here have had your experience, or the ones that do aren't interested in sharing their secrets. I'm curious why you would decide to go mostly monogamous if you had kids? Just to make sure that all your resources are available for the children, or would it be something like a psychological repayment of debt to the mother?

Also, if you did find out that your partner cheated on you in your one-sided relationship, would you end it? And if so, would it be more because of the cheating itself, or the dishonesty?

It's interesting that you suggest bringing it up early on. I've done that before and had a similar experience to you where most girls say "fine", and then get very cold and distant and nothing progresses. Blackdragon, who advocates fully open relationships, recommends not bringing non-monogamy up for months, and avoiding answering the question directly if asked, but acting in a congruently non-monogamous way from the beginning. I guess the advantage to his approach is that by the time you verbalise your expectations, a girl is far more invested in you, whereas on the third date it's easy for her to walk away. Related to this, my last question, you said you say you "cannot commit sexually" on the third date, but do you also say you expect them to commit sexually, or do you imply it in some way?
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Re: Shades of (Non)Monogamy

Postby Franco » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:22 pm

Will KZ,

I've been meaning to respond to this post, but I feel like the answer may end up being relatively extensive unless I can cut it down to just the main points. I'm leaving this post here as a placemarker to add my response in the future.

Cheers,

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Re: Shades of (Non)Monogamy

Postby Will KZ » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:53 pm

Cheers Franco. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts and hope you figure out a way to condense them.

Just FYI, I have read Chase's post on monogamy before, while it's a good generalisation, I don't think it fits with what I'm asking about, so no need to go through it again.
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Re: Shades of (Non)Monogamy

Postby Big Daddy » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:16 am

Franco, I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say even if you can't condense them!
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Re: Shades of (Non)Monogamy

Postby kristian » Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:10 am

Thank you for replying. I guess not too many people here have had your experience, or the ones that do aren't interested in sharing their secrets. I'm curious why you would decide to go mostly monogamous if you had kids? Just to make sure that all your resources are available for the children, or would it be something like a psychological repayment of debt to the mother?


Mostly because children need both parents to be 100 percent available both mentally and emotionally. It is quite difficult to "be there" with all you got when youre looking for girls on the side. But I am talking about experiences coming from a childhood where both my parents cheated on each other. At the same time, who knows if I am able to keep my dick in my pants? There are just too many girls out there to explore.

Also, if you did find out that your partner cheated on you in your one-sided relationship, would you end it? And if so, would it be more because of the cheating itself, or the dishonesty?


In that case it would be mostly because of the dishonesty. But I also understand we are human beings. Imperfect as we are, so I wouldnt view it as black and white as many people would. If other factors are just right (sex is good, great amount of respect and she keeps her domestic duties on point) I would just let it slide. Girls usually dont cheat on boyfriends they respect, tho. But I havent been there, so I wouldnt know.

It's interesting that you suggest bringing it up early on. I've done that before and had a similar experience to you where most girls say "fine", and then get very cold and distant and nothing progresses. Blackdragon, who advocates fully open relationships, recommends not bringing non-monogamy up for months, and avoiding answering the question directly if asked, but acting in a congruently non-monogamous way from the beginning. I guess the advantage to his approach is that by the time you verbalise your expectations, a girl is far more invested in you, whereas on the third date it's easy for her to walk away. Related to this, my last question, you said you say you "cannot commit sexually" on the third date, but do you also say you expect them to commit sexually, or do you imply it in some way?


I prefer to bring it early on, no matter how she would react. With my primary it was just someting like "I just have to tell you I have to share my love from time to time". With the girls on the side a little "I am not the marrying kind" or "you know I cant keep my dick in my pants?". If you bring this in the beggining, while still giving her good sex and being dominant, she will accept it. But there will always be an expiration date in every fwbs.

The thing that I am trying to say is: You got to be willing to walk away and keep that frame from the beginning. As long as you live in abundance and keep that mentality, either by having a bigger calling that women or/and women on the side - I dont see why you woulndt pull it off. Just keep in mind that you always have to fulfill your woman emotionally and sexually and you wont worry - for the most part - that her eyes will wander around, as girls often cheat on boyfriends if the guys are either too boring or demanding (like when girls are in auto-rejection).

Hope that helps. But I know Franco have many other thoughts on this being more advanced than I am.
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Re: Shades of (Non)Monogamy

Postby Chicothat » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:18 pm

kristian wrote:
1 - Have a fully monogamous relationship with the intent of starting a family
Advantages: Jealousy is soothed, a tried and tested model, mostly what I want out of an ltr.
Disadvantages: Lower testosterone, shaky foundations (cheating on either side can lead to severe drama or the end of the relationship), reliance on one woman to meet all my needs, I'm not sure I can (or want) to stay faithful for 10 years or more.

2 - Have a fully open relationship with the intent of starting a family
Advantages: More freedom, potential higher testosterone from variety of women, maybe more compatible with types of girls I'm in to, harder to break up the union because of higher leeway, keep up seduction skills, keep partner on her toes.
Disadvantages: Jealousy may eventually poison me against my partner, potential lower testosterone from loser effect of partner sleeping with other men, may create sense of competition to outdo partner, may create too much work in chasing girls when I'd rather be focused on other things, lower patenity confidence (hopefully the world won't follow France and ban paternity tests, but you never know).

3 - Have a series of short-term monogamous or one-sided monogamous or fully casual relationships (the model of my relationships in my 20s)
Advantages: No jealousy issues, need for variety basically met, testosterone levels probably kept at reasonable level, won't get too rusty with women.
Disadvantages: Not really suited for longterm pair bonding or family rearing, kind of sad and lonely, may get harder to pull off with age - time will tell.

Looking at the list, for someone interested in starting a family, option 2 seems the best bet, though it has plenty of compromises. Option 3 is essentially a decision that having a family is too much work, it's probably where I'm still at, but I don't know if I'll still feel that way in 5-10 years. At least there's no biological clock ticking.

Any thoughts? Preferably based on personal experiences rather than theoretical posturing.


Ive been in all these situations the last 5 years, basically - being mostly in LTR with options on the side (either by cheating or having an open relationship).

From my own experiences, having a one sided relationship seem to be what works best. My temperament is of the jelaous kind as well. But in order to pull this off, you have to act as soon as possible with the girl. So if youre considering to convert a monogamous relationship to an open r, its gonna be messy and it will end. You have to start from scratch and seek out the right girl with the right temperament from the get go.

One thing to keep in mind, no one woman will be able to satisfy me 100 % and I believe this goes for you as well. Telling the girl that you cannot commit sexually to one woman as soon as possible (by the third date) was essential from my part. Mind I said "cannot commit sexually" and not "emotionally". Many girls crave the emotional faithfulness first and foremost as opposed to guys where the sex part plays a bigger part. So if you make it clear that you would be able to love just one woman but not able to fuck just her and she accepts that, then its game on.

Ive done this to different types of girls, but most seem to say "ok" and then do the opposite so the type of girl you choose is important as well. For me, where I am on my skills right now, nerdy, intelligent girls who doesnt seem to bother what society says seem to be the best bet. It seems like you can find these girls in STEM-jobs where guys are chumps and not not sexy.

At the same time, you have to be sexy enough for her to want to "share" you with other women. So there will always be a power imbalance in SMV, and thats okay, so long youre aware of that and treat her like a queen.

Ive been in an one-sided monogamy relationship for two years, and it doesnt bother her because I treat her well, and I am very discreet about my sexual escapades. So theres a "dont ask, dont tell"-policy here, altho I mention that I "share my love" once in a while just to remind her. However there are rules:

I dont allow myself to fall in love. These are mostly sexual relationships. Sometimes very shortlived FWBs.
I try to protect myself.
My sexual escapades doesnt affect her directly (ie. not spending time or me being abscent with my love).

In fact, having one sided ltr makes the sex so much hotter, as it keeps her on her toes. Besides, I dont need to be scared of getting lower testosterone at all.

I am 33, btw, and she is 28. We might have kids in a couple of years, so I might go monogamous if that happens. But I know, deep down, that I will stray from time to time. Thats for sure.

Shes been with me, from what Ive seen. But what do I know, she could have been sexual with other guys in this two year span, but theres not guarantee for anything, right? As long as she still delivers in bed and acts feminine around me (which are my only two requisites in a relationship) its still going strong.

I dont know if that helps. But I am not the guy to openly share my main woman and I dont like decieving someone (by cheating behind their back), so I choose this solution. And it works because I did things right and chose the right woman.



I have a son, he´s the best wing man. I´m also married. Woman and Men are different, Very different, even though at the CORE we are the same. A woman will always be more attracted to you when another woman loves you. As a man, if another man loves your woman and she reciprocates, you ditch her. Woman don´t work this way.
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Re: Shades of (Non)Monogamy

Postby Will KZ » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:14 pm

Thanks for your reply Kristian.

Chicothat, is your wife aware of the other women that love you, and if so, how do you discuss it?
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Re: Shades of (Non)Monogamy

Postby Chicothat » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:35 pm

Will KZ wrote:Thanks for your reply Kristian.

Chicothat, is your wife aware of the other women that love you, and if so, how do you discuss it?


Let me get back to you on Monday. If you have any more information or details about your situation please do not hesitate to write it down here below my post. Your either a natural or you work your way upto it.
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