FR  WillowyCutie

I had a couple hours to kill between meetings today, and it was raining hard, so I headed to the mall. After a fun date with FitChick Saturday (FR update to follow) I almost didn't bother driving all the way there, but I figured I needed to continue sharpening my ability, just like practicing an instrument, so the rain should be no excuse.

Monday was a slow day for Christmas shopping, and I was just about to call it a day and leave, when I passed a very tall (6'0") lady with an unspeakably well-proportioned, slender figure who glanced at me as she passed. We'll call her WillowyCutie. I turned around and admired her retreating body, then caught up unhurriedly. I opened walking parallel to her, very close, looking forward and making no eye contact.

• Marty: You just passed me back there (she turns to look at me, but I keep looking straight ahead), and I felt I just had to come back and say hello. (I stare hard at her in silence for a moment, then give her the "once-over", all the way down and up again, nice and slow; then meet her eye again with cocked eyebrow) I simply couldn't resist it.
  
  WillowyCutie: (looking at me in wonderment) Oh! That's very nice!

I throw a few basic questions at her to get her talking. The conversation quickly becomes animated. She enters a store and starts selecting Christmas gifts for her niece, but she is not really focused on the task. We meander around the clothing racks, conversing languidly; I give her limited eye contact and body language and make her work a little to get answers to her own questions about me. It so happens that we have quite a bit in common. She is visibly piqued. I decide to attempt an instadate.

• Marty: Why don't we go sit down, grab a coffee together?
  
  WillowyCutie: (poorly attempting to suppress a smile) I don't know... I don't usually go talk with strangers...
  
  Marty: Strangers? (pause, bored look) Well, how do you get to know people then?
  
  WillowyCutie: To be honest, I don't meet too many new people... You're right, let's get a coffee. There's a Starbucks nearby.

She abandons her Christmas shopping pretense. I am obviously well aware of the Starbucks location in the mall, and place my hand on her lower back to guide her, regardless of her knowing the route. We continue conversing lightly during the transition and when we are served, she offers to pay for my drink. I thank her.

The drinks are prepared and we sit. She is around 30, maybe a couple years younger; her figure is as close to perfect as I have ever seen. The tone of the conversation takes a deeper turn. She works in healthcare administration and complains that the professional staff are difficult to manage and irresponsible. To set a "bad boy" frame I tell her the true story of meeting in the early hours of Sunday morning an attractive young woman who is very drunk, and who tells me she's a surgeon in town for employment interviews About 15 minutes after we sit, this is what happens:

• Marty: So are you now committed to staying in this city, or will you perhaps move?
  
  WillowyCutie: You know, I don't really want to get tied down... I like to keep my options open.
  
  Marty: It's so important to feel you can move on and expose yourself to new influences. Be open to adventure.
  
  WillowyCutie: Exactly... that's why I divorced my husband, he didn't see things that way.
  
  Marty: It's refreshing to speak to someone who takes that attitude. So many people... women especially, they seek stability and predictability above all else; it's nice to meet someone who embraces change, the unpredictable.
  
  WillowyCutie: Yes! Yes! (eyes gleaming now)
  
  Marty: (look off into distance, pause dramatically) Of course, when you do that ... (pause) ... it unfortunately affects other people too ... (return my gaze to her) ... but you can't sacrifice your life just to avoid offending others.
  
  WillowyCutie: (speechless for a moment, eyes brimming with tears) That's amazing... you took the words right out of my mouth. In fact, I said the exact same thing to my attorney.

It's basically over and within the next 10 minutes I propose meeting for a bite to eat another day. She says she doesn't have her business card; I give her a steady, "don't be ridiculous" look and tell her it'll be much simpler if she simply gives me her cell phone number. I hand her my phone. As she is saving her number I ask whether she prefers men to call her or text her... the only reason for the question is to solidify the "men" frame, i.e. a sexually driven encounter and not a platonic one.

On parting she extends her hand; I move closer, she reaches to hug me and I cheek-kiss her, to her evident delight. I text her an icebreaker soon after, and within a couple hours she texts me back. Hoping this will be a fun one

Marty said:

I opened walking parallel to her, very close, looking forward and making no eye contact.

Marty: You just passed me back there (she turns to look at me, but I keep looking straight ahead), and I felt I just had to come back and say hello. (I stare hard at her in silence for a moment, then give her the "once-over", all the way down and up again, nice and slow; then meet her eye again with cocked eyebrow) I simply couldn't resist it.

WillowyCutie: (looking at me in wonderment) Oh! That's very nice!

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Very interesting style of approach, the genuine interest is implied with body language and eye contact all over. She notices you first (eye contact). Were you doing this as you were still walking, or did you stop? Were you smiling a sexy smile, or was your expression blank? Gotta use this one some time.

Marty said:

Marty: Why don't we go sit down, grab a coffee together?

WillowyCutie: (poorly attempting to suppress a smile) I don't know... I don't usually go talk with strangers...

Marty: Strangers? (pause, bored look) Well, how do you get to know people then?

WillowyCutie: To be honest, I don't meet too many new people... You're right, let's get a coffee. There's a Starbucks nearby.

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Her excuse was SO LAME it's pretty clear she was just shit-testing. Haha, and your response was perfect. She rationalized it out afterwards.

Marty said:

Marty: So are you now committed to staying in this city, or will you perhaps move?

WillowyCutie: You know, I don't really want to get tied down... I like to keep my options open.

Marty: It's so important to feel you can move on and expose yourself to new influences. Be open to adventure.

WillowyCutie: Exactly... that's why I divorced my husband, he didn't see things that way.

Marty: It's refreshing to speak to someone who takes that attitude. So many people... women especially, they seek stability and predictability above all else; it's nice to meet someone who embraces change, the unpredictable.

WillowyCutie: Yes! Yes! (eyes gleaming now)

Marty: (look off into distance, pause dramatically) Of course, when you do that ... (pause) ... it unfortunately affects other people too ... (return my gaze to her) ... but you can't sacrifice your life just to avoid offending others.

WillowyCutie: (speechless for a moment, eyes brimming with tears) That's amazing... you took the words right out of my mouth. In fact, I said the exact same thing to my attorney.

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Sexual tension, sexual voice, rapport, portraying yourself as a sexual man, cold reading and framing all in about six sentences. I like how simple and straight forward it is, you make it look so easy haha.

Marty said:

As she is saving her number I ask whether she prefers men to call her or text her... the only reason for the question is to solidify the "men" frame, i.e. a sexually driven encounter and not a platonic one.

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Nice idea, I like it a lot. Might be stealing that one from you too ;-)

Sounds promising.

Ozzo, thanks!

ozzo said:

Very interesting style of approach, the genuine interest is implied with body language and eye contact all over.

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Exactly; it is also implied verbally in the phrases "I felt I just had to" and "I simply couldn't resist it". I love this old article, incidentally: Showing Interest and Keeping It

ozzo said:

She notices you first (eye contact).

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Yeah, like I said I saw from my peripherals that she was looking at me, but resisted the temptation to meet her gaze initially. This gave me additional confidence due to a feeling of being "in control" of when and how I used eye contact, rather than simply responsive.

ozzo said:

Were you doing this as you were still walking, or did you stop?

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We were walking, which made it easier and more natural: "look where you're going" kinda thing.

ozzo said:

Were you smiling a sexy smile, or was your expression blank?

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I was "twinkling" rather than smiling as such. My lips were too busy talking to smile, but my eyes were lit up and my eyebrows were slightly arched. It's the look of a man who knows he is likely to amuse others with what he will say, rather than one who is amused. It gets easier as you become older; I have rarely if ever seen a man under 30 wear this expression (and I don't believe women use it at all), and actually intelligent men in their 60s and 70s seem to do it all the time. The actor Roger Moore was an expert at it (as is Stephen Fry, although he's gay). Ronald Reagan had it in spades, of course.

ozzo said:

Sexual tension, sexual voice, rapport, portraying yourself as a sexual man, cold reading and framing all in about six sentences.

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Thanks, I've been making a point of talking a lot to hot girls even if they're "forbidden fruit" (e.g. married women in the office) to get as much practice in this as possible without necessarily escalating or worrying about results. I want to get to the point where it becomes automatic.

ozzo said:

Nice idea, I like it a lot. Might be stealing that one from you too ;-)

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Yeah. Actually, the earlier part where I say "especially women" is another example of the same thing. I am intentionally highlighting the "male-female" dynamic... it's like a subtext of "I am talking to you as a man talks to a woman he desires". I've been practicing this too ;-)

-Marty

Okay so this was weird. A date, but not exactly the way I planned it. Still, I think it can be saved, potentially.

Where did we leave things? Oh, back in the mall. So I text her a "save my number"–style icebreaker, and within 2 hours I get "OK" back. Better than nothing.

So next afternoon I call her. She picks up promptly, but she's on the other line with her mom. Says she'll call back early evening. Yeah right. I can't see that happening, she's too nervous, I'm pretty sure.

Sure enough, I hear nothing so shortly before 11 PM, a deliberately-chosen late time to test compliance and willingness for intimacy, I text her about grabbing a bite soon. She replies 20 minutes later that she's busy during the week but Saturday brunch would be good. I put forward a tentative time, say we'll firm it up later, and wish her a good night, ending the interaction on my terms.

Next morning she texts me saying she forgot about another Saturday commitment but suggests Sunday instead. I say fine and get her to tell me where she wants to go... clearly she must have an idea if she suggested brunch in the first place. I let her know I made the reservation, she texts me back and I don't reply.

I do an anti-flaking text this morning (thanks Just Dave for the suggestion). She shows up within a minute of the appointed time, looking long, thin and leggy as usual. Also wearing a great perfume. I cheek-kiss her and she goes for a second one, the other side, European-style. I have a bit of fun with that.

Brunch is uneventful by my recent dating standards; I deep-dive of course and we connect quite well, but nothing on the scale of FitChick. Basically, I show I understand her, but there are no real "precious moments" (and as a result I don't get dragged in emotionally into the bargain). She's cute, intelligent, interesting to be with, and I'm sure she'd be great in bed, but I can't see myself ever becoming smitten by her.

She tells me she's 35... 3 years my junior and a bit older than most girls I normally talk to, but that's all to the good and makes things more interesting. She doesn't look a day over 28 and can't have a bodymass index of more than 18. Think "Victoria's Secret model"–skinny. Not a beautiful face, just cute and with very seductive lips and mouth. She tells me during brunch that she has a teenager's metabolism. Nice if you can get it.

She does a lot of flirty eye-contact and droopy eyelids and whatnot, and naturally I give as good as I get. While she puts on an air of magnificence in public as you'd expect from a 5'10" leggy waif, underneath she seems pretty submissive with me in many ways, and I feel in control throughout the meal. She tells me about some bozo who wanted to take her on a date to a Justin Bieber concert. The guy was 42. Okaaay....

Mindful of escalation windows, I suggest we stroll outside; I inquire about her time constraints and she tells me "20 minutes". Hmmm. I prod further and it turns out she just has a lot of things to get done (first week in new job), no specific appointments. I could read that two ways: either she wants me to move fast, or she doesn't want anything to happen on the first date. I work with the first, although she no doubt had the second in mind.

I get her to take my arm which she does willingly. As we talk I switch to handholding, speculating that she's not the sort of aggressive, multiple dater-girl who will find that too "relationship"–y; sure enough she's okay with it, so I move immediately to interlocked fingers. She seems to be good with that too.

Somehow the conversation drifts to assertiveness (something to do with the new job, I suppose; I've forgotten already) and I mention that she can probably get people to do what she wants in the workplace; she's like "no no", it's just an outer shell, I'm a lamb underneath sort of thing. You don't say? Really? I laugh inwardly and stop her, turn to face her directly, a wicked smirk on my face and a knowing look in my eye.

• Marty: Well, obviously, I liked the outer casing from the start, but I'm starting to like what I find underneath too.

I move in to kiss her, but she turns her face and I get her cheek instead. I am unimpressed.

We start moving again and she tells me I'm very direct. I'm like, really? This is direct? After going through the Girls Chase program you start to forget what women must be used to with a lot of other men. Anyway, this "You don't hang around, do you?" refrain continues for the next 15 minutes or so. It's cold, so we get in her car. She warns me: "Just so long as you don't get aggressive..." She obviously hasn't been around many really aggressive men. If they're all like the Justin Bieber fan guy, I'm not surprised.

I touch her hands, face, hair a little in the car, but it's hard to escalate. She says to me: "You move real fast" (she actually uses that expression). She keeps putting the brakes on and at one point this happens:

• WillowyCutie: I don't usually go this fast... I like to be friends first.
  
  Marty: Friends? I'm not sure like the sound of that.
  
  WillowyCutie: Well, maybe not friends. But acquaintances at least.

I joke that maybe one of her guy pals she's known for 2 or 3 years might suddenly make a pass at her, and she sees the funny side of what she said. I keep getting the cheek every time I go for the kiss; she doesn't pull away as such, and she's not resistant to the kino I am giving, but I can't escalate. I actually verbalize that her mouth is very seductive, which she seems to like, but she won't let me get to know it better

I see her picking at her fingers, place my hand over hers to steady them, and ask her "Do you get nervous with men?" to which she replies "No!!" a little too quickly and forcefully to be credible, "protesting too much"–style; I follow up with "But I can see you're nervous around me".

I decide to end the interaction myself, as I don't have a strong enough frame to batter through and I want to end on a good note. I tell her I'll let her get on with what she needs to do. As I'm about to get out of her car, she says "I'll text you next week or something", and I look at her but say nothing. She's anxious, almost willing me to respond.

No point in saying anything that might cause her to doubt the impression I've already given that I'm a man who doesn't have time for female "friends" and won't waste time on women who won't move forward with me. She should have gotten that impression the moment I opened her direct in the mall. I politely say "see ya", with a smile, and leave.

I'll see whether she does text me. She may need prompting, as she's really a follower. Big-time. I get the impression she'd be interested in making something happen but preferably on her own terms. We'll have to work on that

I'd rate this date as poor-to-mediocre, but comments welcome as always!

-Marty

This one was smooth, I expect a LR out of this one Marty =P

She's definitely into it.

Marty, this is gold. I got around to reading it after your PM

As far as the kiss, definitely go for the spontaneous kiss. It sounds like you kept going for the romantic kiss (which is still great that you were persistent!). I had a FR with a Chinese girl that kept doing this. Luckily, I had read Chase's article on the different types of kisses (https://www.girlschase.com/content/how-kiss-girl-no-ones-ever-kissed-her). She denied my "romantic kiss" 3 times. Finally, I leaned in close and started talking about something else. Then bam! kissed her right on the lips without her expecting it and just held eye contact. Chase suggests going back to the original topic (like nothing happened). Instead, in this scenario, she said, "I can't believe you did that!" with dreamy eyes. I said, "I can't believe I didn't do it sooner" and went in for the romantic kiss, and she didn't deny me that time. We had a good long makeout session, but no sex unfortunately. This was our first date. Later, when I asked her about it, she said that she had wanted me to kiss her the whole night. When I asked her why she resisted, she said that she was worried it would have lead to sex. It probably would have lead to sex if I had been more persistent and more experienced; I also made chasing moves prior to the date which had set the wrong tone.

I say go on a 3rd date and try the spontaneous kiss Also, look up Chase's date template article. Try to have the interaction begin or end at your place. Invite her over to watch White Christmas, and you'll make dinner for her or make it together. If she's not keen on that, try to meet somewhere close to your apartment and then end with a nightcap/dessert (buy or make a special dessert) at your place.

The bad news is that you didn't get the actual kiss, so it bumped you down a bit. But the good news is that you came off very strong, manly, and sexual from the first meeting. I think you can still turn this around in your favor.

Nice one, Marty.

One question though: what's the anti-flaking text you speak of? Is there an article on this? Thanks!

Rebel:

Rebel said:

One question though: what's the anti-flaking text you speak of? Is there an article on this? Thanks!

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The article that several of us here swear by for texting is as follows (it discusses "anti-flaking" texts too): How to Text Girls: 20 More Tips and Techniques

There's also an article dedicated to flake prevention specifically: What to Do When Girls Flake

Zphix, Pinot Noir:

Thanks for your encouragement... I must say, though, I'm rather surprised that you're both so sanguine Like I said in the FR, I can't see myself committing much more time to a girl who's unwilling to move forward with me. How can you tell she's "into it", Zphix? If she won't even kiss, I can't see how I can even get her on a follow-up date, let alone convert this into a LR.

My best guess is that I'll benefit more, with less effort, by opening a dozen more girls and hoping that, statistically speaking, one of those will date me rather than trying and failing with WillowyCutie. I doubt I'll hear from her ever again, though I'd be pleasantly surprised if you were right, of course!

I'm just astounded that two people can independently see something in this report that I don't...

Pinot, great point about the spontaneous kiss, I've only ever once tried this and it seemed quite fun! Now I know how to follow it up, I might actually find it useful for generating success... thank you!!

-Marty

My best guess is that I'll benefit more, with less effort, by opening a dozen more girls and hoping that, statistically speaking, one of those will date me rather than trying and failing with WillowyCutie. I doubt I'll hear from her ever again, though I'd be pleasantly surprised if you were right, of course!

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Don't be so defeatist You haven't even tried to take her to bed yet! Even if you fail, this will be a great learning exercise!

Think of it this way:

X = % of conservative women that will put up loads of resistance
Y = % of general women that will put up resistance
Z = % of liberal women that will put up little resistance

X > Y > Z (depends on where you live and where you approach, but generally true)

If you learn how to get past X's resistance, it'll be even easier to get past Y's and Z's! Not only that, but then you'll have an even bigger pool of women to choose from: X + Y + Z. Also, the women in X and Y are more girlfriend material, in my opinion.

Of course, still approach and date Y and Z, while also trying a date or two with women in X without too much stress. I'd say 1 or 2 maximum in group X.

- You opened her wonderfully and came off strong.
- You've only had 1 date where she successfully resisted you.
- You've only been on 2 dates (if you count the first meeting).

It's not too late!

It sounds like your fundamentals are perfect. Really, I think these are the only 2 articles that you need to read (or read again) for this girl:

Last Minute Resistance by Alek
Date Templates
(And maybe 3 Second Date Strategies)

If you're honestly not interested in it, then sure, forget it. But if you're interested, I think you should try a 3rd date to simply learn and improve; what do you have to lose?

Of course, if she resists again on the 3rd date, then it's probably time to end it, because then you'll be crossing the line of persistence into chasing, but every failure is a lesson.

Hey Marty!

Kudos on the instant date and the follow up Day 2.

I get her cheek instead. I am unimpressed.

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Been there. You go in for it, she turns at the last second and just sits there while you slurp on her cheek. *shakes head*

If you think about it, it's kind of hilarious.


Anyway

I'm rooting for ya, Marty pants. I look forward to reading about your day three.

Thanks, GentlePhrases.

Pinot, thank you for your support and I don't mean to be defeatist! I'm not a defeatist person by nature... I keep persisting (if I want something) but here I was just trying to be realistic as regards what warrants the appropriate amount of effort! You're quite right that I'll learn far more if she does agree to another meeting; I certainly wouldn't decline it, I'm just skeptical that she will.

PinotNoir said:

Also, the women in X and Y are more girlfriend material, in my opinion.

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It's good that you express your opinion freely, but this is completely beyond my understanding, I'm afraid. If you're talking about conservatism regarding romantic and sexual relations, that's not something I'm fond of (particularly not when it's motivated by fanatical spiritual piety). In any case a woman's views about others' behavior, interventionist or otherwise, are hardly the first thing I'd consider when contemplating a relationship.

You're gonna laugh at me, and maybe it's just my relative inexperience (three serious relationships and a handful of casual lays through social circle, nothing more), but what does make a difference to me in terms of girlfriend material is whether she makes my heart go "pit-a-pat". WillowyCutie has sex appeal through the roof, but doesn't make my heart go pit-a-pat and never will. On the other hand FitChick, for example, made my heart go pit-a-pat the moment I saw her (and consequently I actually care about the fact that she's disappeared off of the face of the Earth).

Thanks for the article links and yes, I definitely will push this one to the limit if I get the opportunity, but that's by no means a foregone conclusion

-Marty