Need help getting confidence with women

AdamEngineer

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I am not sure if I have the right mindset when it comes to this.

I am not sure if I am needy or not and it comes down to these reasons:
1. I am shy by nature. I think I am not upset that I am single, but more upset I feel I can't overcome my shyness to make something happen.
2. I fear rejection not for the rejection as much as losing the effort and the courage it took to make a move in the first place.
3. Sometimes I have no problem depending on the setting (large bar crowds in open environments vs college bar scene) because I feel everyone notices, and I look like a player.
4. I get down on myself when I see attractive women with boyfriends. I don't understand how to naturally meet women in my daily life as I am mostly studying or the things I do enjoy doing don't put me in a natural environment to socialize (ie frat, athlete party, etc.) I don't understand how meeting women for these guys is different than any other guy. I don't see them picking up women and approaching.
5. When I do get the chance I can't build attraction at all. Even if I am cool. I think too much and its hard to let loose. I think I show too much excitement when a pretty girl talks to me, if that ever happens.
6. I'm forced to cold approach, but I hesitate to do so as no one else has to do this, they just end up getting lucky or something. I get girls numbers no problem but it never leads to anything, or very short one sided conversations. I get not investment. I think I have what it takes but damn I need some reassurance or something.

I am a very good looking guy (I get told all the time you'd be surprised), I invest in myself by lifting weights, studying to be an engineer (I'm super stressed until graduation) and putting going out and other hobbies on hold. I have value, it just seems that no one else sees it. I also have no close friends since I'm a 5th year.

I know I'm capable of being with attractive women, but my mindset that I may not be good enough is holding me back. How can I overcome this? It seems my effort is futile and at 23 years old, I've been with 8 girls (5-7) range. Probably 30 plus make-outs, but only 2 one month long relationships 6 years apart. Even my parents are surprised I struggle with this.
 

ElderPrice

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All of those thoughts have gone through my mind too at some point. The existence of this site and forum should be all the proof you need to realize YES all of that is fixable.

Some thoughts:

1. First off, as far as your mind goes, you have to think of this process as a fun process. The "rejections" get you closer to the yes's and they give you opportunities to learn and optimize.

2. Second mindset note - I highly recommend trying a paradigm shift that I JUST stumbled on myself. After a couple nights out, I can say it's one of the few pieces of advise that I've seen that has had that NOTICEABLE impact that we're always looking for when trying to make our game better. That paradigm is: giving vs. taking. Generally speaking, taking = bad results and bad mood. Giving = good results and good mood. Basically, right now when you, AdamEngineer, go out and live your life, you're taking. You're trying to grab women and add them to your life. You think you're missing a piece of your life inside of you so you're trying to find that thing, take it from the world and consume it. This doesn't work. Instead, try doing the opposite. Whenever you go into the world, whether that's to go to class or to specifically meet girls, do so from the Giving perspective. Act in a way where all you're doing is adding to OTHER PEOPLE'S lives. GIVE value. Give them sincere compliments. Give great conversations. Give funny jokes. Give a fun time. Boost their energy and spirits. And do it without wanting ANYTHING in return. Just give. Implement this mindset change and don't be surprised if all those problems you list quickly go away.

3. Don't worry about others. You know this is dumb. You have no idea how those guys got those girlfriends. You have no idea if they've been cold approaching and putting in the work for years. So it's not worth worrying about.

4. Have some fucking pride and put a big smile on your face that YOU are accepting the challenge of meeting girls the hard way! Other guys don't learn this shit because they don't have the grit to take on REAL challenges. You do. You should love that. You'll be able to pick up girls in ANY situation. For all these other guys, they have their one method and if you take that away from them they're fucked.

5. Finally, please find on the boards here and do the Newbie Assignment. It's probably the most helpful thing you can find and do for getting better with girls/pushing the comfort zone. If you take a weakling to the gym to get strong, you don't put 300 pounds on his back on Day 1. You start with what he's capable of doing, then add a tiny amount of weight each workout. In a rather short amount of time, he'll be up to 300 pounds. This is what the Newbie Assignment does. It breaks everything down into manageable steps so that you can SLOWLY expand your comfort zone. Then after a short amount of time, you'll be much stronger than when you started.

Hope this helps!
 

ray_zorse

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ElderPrice gave good advice.

Additionally to that, I think you should study the concepts of warmup and social momentum, there are articles about it on the main site. From what you described, it sounds strongly like you are lacking momentum. The timeframe for gathering and losing momentum can be quick (20mins) or slow (2hrs), so it is pretty unpredictable, you just have to give it your best shot and approach say 3 or 4 girls and see how things look then.

The first few approaches might be pretty awkward. Does not matter. You can try to use various approaches for gathering momentum, such as: Approaching less attractive girls at first (even grandma's etc if you are really freezing up). Conversations with shop staff. Compliment-Eject. Committing to approaching the first girl you see as you leave the house. Etc.

Tied in with this whole thing is protecting your ego and fear of rejection. When you think about it carefully, rejection does not actually harm you in any way. She says no, you smile and move on. Where rejection can sting a bit is if you ALREADY felt insecure, and you feel her response confirms your lack of worth. That is a dumb way to be thinking -- if you know you are a good dude and capable of giving her what she needs/wants then her rejection is basically her loss and water off a duck's back right?

It could also be a failure to sell your value to her (you have vakue but she could not access it in this instance). In that case, you can treat it more like an intellectual proposition of how to make your value more accessible, rather than immediately feeling worthless. (And believe me, as an ACoN / Adult Child of Narcissists I know all about that worthless feeling, I experienced all the problems with girls you describe).

So, you will lose a lot more lays through fear of rejection than from accidentally doing ir saying the wrong thing and looking foolish. When I am approaching I often do or say the wrong thing. Does not matter -- you can't learn without any mistakes. :)

I hope it helps!

Ray
 

ElderPrice

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Ray, great point! I can't believe I forgot about warming up! Adam, to help make sure I actually warm up and don't pussy out of it, I give myself a rule: The outing has not begun until I've opened 20 people. Notice I said opened. Not asked for numbers, not invited home, nothing like that. Simple opens or interactions like how Ray described. THEN the game can begin. So if you set as a goal to approach 10 girls on Friday night, your plan of attack should really be: Approach/open 20 people (anyone - guys or girls), THEN the next girl you approach will be Girl Approach #1 for that night. Just my two cents on the subject.
 

AdamEngineer

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Thanks for the replies, its sincerely appreciated.

I will try to do what you guys have suggested. Sometimes I feel great, other times its just a hopeless feeling. Going the last 7 years of my life, 5 in college, only having 2 one month long relationships 6 years apart has severely had a negative impact on how desirable I feel despite my investment into my life. It seems no matter how hard I try it doesn't get easier even when I get some external proof. I guess my self esteem is very low.

As for the paradigm shift, I know what that is and I know the difference internally, I've walked both paths. Its just very difficult to go out and not expect anything when in reality its the only reason I go out. Unless I go out, knowing I'm going to approach, and try to separate the purpose from the outcome.

That's the hardest part for me, separating the purpose from the outcome. For me personally, those things are supposed to go together, as whats the point in having a purpose if the desired outcome is never achieved?

See I know the difference in how I am positive and negative, giving and taking, having fun and being sour. Its hard for me to stay positive and continue to feel that way in the face of rejection, even if I've already been rejected whether thats the cold shoulder (few times) vs conversation going cold (many times).

Its also hard for me to gain momentum because I feel I already know how the night is going to go. Once I step in the venue, all the time I took to work myself up to go out just disappears, and I feel useless, insecure, and anxious.

Thanks again guys.
 

ElderPrice

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I know EXACTLY what you mean. That's almost exactly where I'm at myself. I'm just BARELY on the cusp or past the edge of that in the direction of getting over it. At this point I have one question for you: When is the last time you went out SOLELY to improve the nights of others? You weren't going out to meet girls, make approaches, get drunk, nothing like that. When is the last time you went out SOLELY to improve the nights of others? If I had to make a guess, I'd guess you honestly have never done that before. Give it a try. That mindset will improve your mood and motivation instantly.

Go out to a popping venue this weekend and make it your goal to do nothing else but make other people's nights better. That doesn't mean buy them drinks or try to pull girls. Think about it as if you're the club's owner. What would they do? They would walk around, open every person there, ask if they're having a good time, and do their best to provide a fun, positive conversation. They're not hitting on anyone. They're not going to be butthurt if they don't get laid, or if they get "rejected." They're just going to be happy that they're helping other people be happy.

Give it a shot and report back. I think you'll be pleased with the results!
 

AdamEngineer

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Thanks Elder for the advice. Again, I may sound worse than I am, but this is an internet forum, so I'm gonna just say it all hahaha.

Thing is that is very difficult for me to do. Honestly, I find that I can talk to lots of people if I'm feeling it mentally. Otherwise I'm stifled and shy. Approaching everyone just for fun even when I'm feeling good doesn't seem very mature, or even what Alpha guys do. Alpha guys don't care, and next thing you know he somehow meets this girl.

I was at a party one time. This average looking asshole (and I mean he was a prick) somehow ended up making out with this very attractive girl. How I have no idea. He was a prick, idiot, and so egotistical that it made me question the security and confidence of the girl.

I CAN do what you ask, but I CANNOT seem to control my attitude, my energy, my mental freedom, to let go and do that, without those attempts coming across as awkward, and then being rejected. Its not that I don't know how to do, its that I don't know how to FEEL it. I actually am very much normal socially despite being shy, its that I am holding myself back and even if I were to take your advice, because my mindset doesn't match my actions, it legitimately feels painful to fight and leads me to a reaction seeking mentality. Also the fact I go out alone reminds me I have no quality friends to go out with and that is more negative on top.

Its also hard for me to let go of the past 5 years of my life and that I feel I've missed out on so much.
 

ElderPrice

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I hear you man. Believe me, I do.

Let me ask you this.... What answer are you looking for here?

You can read every article on GC 10,000 times and you can read about pick up on the internet for 10,000 years, but they're all going to lead you to the same basic answer: If you're not happy with where you are at, you have to make a change.

If you're not feeling good about my suggestions, that's okay... but you tell me what actions you have in mind to try instead. What change do you see yourself making? Can you envision yourself making a change that is a little bit uncomfortable? If so, what exactly is that that you envision?
 

AdamEngineer

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I don't know what I'm really trying to learn.

I'm trying to understand what is wrong with me. Cleary there is something I am thinking/not thinking doing/not doing that has led to me being single for many years.

I suffer from depression that I believe is thought induced, meaning its not genetic but developed during college. Socially I'm a very late bloomer so my social skills didn't develop. My self esteem never really came around for me as much as I would have hoped by 23 since I was had issues in High school.

Dude, I'm just depressed, frustrated, and upset that for so long all I can do is look at very attractive college girls and not being able to meet them in natural environments without having to cold approach, because cold approaching will just make me look as a player, especially since I can't seem to do it without getting too excited or seeming way to pessimistic. Its been the only thing I truly want for the last several years. Job, yea I'll get that soon, body? I want that and believe that is holding me back, but that will come. Women? I have never been with any girl I genuinely find attractive that I didn't feel I settled for slightly. My last GF was cute, but like a 6.9 dressed up at best.

I don't know if its shyness, negative thinking, or being awkward I don't know. I haven't read too much on here but I plan to take a day to read stuff over. I don't believe I can get girls and its the most defeating feeling I've ever had. Ironically, its all I've truly wanted for years. Even if I get the chance to talk to a cute blonde or whatever, I get way to nervous and if I can't keep the conversation going it sucks. I literally feel like a child in a box thats the internal feeling I get when I'm not at my 100%, which seems to be all the time. I think maybe I need to leave the college atmosphere, but I don't think things are gonna magically change when I'm an engineer.

My biggest insecurity right now is my lean body, otherwise I have lots of self confidence, just not with women. I want to get bigger because I feel inferior to a lot of the men these girls seem to like.
 

ray_zorse

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Adam, if you need a reboot in mental attitudes about women specifically, then this site is perfect. I highly recommend Chase's e-book, an early product of his that I am not sure is promoted or sold anymore, but it really takes things from the beginning and I certainly found this was the best reboot for my own attitudes and behaviours.

If the problem goes deeper, which it did in my case (I am an ACoN / Adult Child of Narcissists and also a recovering codependent) then I recommend the following:
No more Mr Nice Guy, by Dr Robert Glover
Healing the shame that binds you, by Dr John Bradshaw

A fair bit of experience with helping people in your situation (and with the guys in this forum generally, as most of us started where you are), tells me that the underlying reasons and life script do not vary all that much from case to case. Although there can obviously be exceptions, I feel that one of the above resources is 99% likely to have yoy covered. However, it may involve rather large mental adjustments as you realize that your upbringing was not what you thought it was, etc. Most people do not at all comprehend how the above material could apply to them at first and also find it rather confronting, so that they would basically rather not know and not progress.

Ray
 

ElderPrice

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Adam, to an extent, you DO know what you're trying to learn. You're trying to learn how to interact with girls. Before that, you may even be trying to learn how to interact with people. You know how you get better at interacting with people? By interacting with people. One way or another, you have to just suck it up, go out there, and do it. Otherwise you're never going to change.

You SHOULD read as much here as you can and learn the material. But many articles emphasize the following: You can read til you're blue in the face, but nothing will happen until you go out and start practicing in the field.

Please answer my question. I'm trying to help. What answer are you looking for here? I offered you a couple ideas that you seemed to turn down. Help me understand what kind of answer you're looking for.
 

AdamEngineer

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@ray_zorse:

I think the problem is actually a lot less than what I make it out to be. I am social and capable of having a conversation intellectually. When it comes to flirting I think I'm a little off.

Self esteem wise, yea I think I need some work, but I haven't gotten to where I want to be in life yet. My parents insist that it will come once I graduate with my engineering degree and get a full time job. I feel like I've lost a lot of dating time but they insist I am only 23.

I know that book, I have close to 10 books on dating from "No More Mr Nice Guy" to Models, and The Manual. I have others like The Art of Seduction but I don't think that information is necessary.

What is an ACON? Where does that come from?


@Elder

Like I said before, I think my issue is a lot more simple than what I make it out to be. I'm just shy and nervous around girls. Then I take it hard on myself that I am not good enough and that hurts my self esteem. The prettier the girl, the worse I feel. This is even before I approach, I almost never do.

I am insecure about my body, I am trying to get it bigger, I think that will definitely bring more confidence. While it is an external factor, it is something that I enjoy doing, and, will make me feel much more masculine and dominant.

What am I trying to learn: You wanted a list, alrighty here ya go:

1. I am trying to overcome my negative thoughts and negative patterns about myself and the world. I am trying to be a little more easy going.

2. I would like to learn how to talk to any attractive woman I see be it a college girl or some model. This includes everything from the approach, cold or warm, in all sorts of venues, to building attraction through communication and how to put my personality out there. I don't seem to have that "oh my goodness what a cool guy" personality. Am I too emotional? Do I show to much emotion? Am I not reading the situation right? etc. While I have social intelligence, I want to be sure about what I am doing. How do I make it flow natural.

3. How to get girls on dates after getting numbers regardless of how long the interaction went. I hate this part. I've gotten tons of numbers but I just can't get them to respond, which happens, or know how to get it so they want to come out on a date or something.

4. How to appear less needy, ie searching for sex, but also showing interest and being sexual- This makes no sense to me. How to I talk to a girl I want to sleep with, without coming across as only wanting them for sex. Is it bad that the only reason I want to talk to girls at this point is to sleep with them? I have a very high sex drive and get frustrated real easy.

5. How to not care what others think of me, and to just let loose and overcome social anxiety (which I have worked quite a bit on.)

I think I nailed everything here, thanks again Elder.
 

ElderPrice

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AdamEngineer said:
1. I am trying to overcome my negative thoughts and negative patterns about myself and the world. I am trying to be a little more easy going.

2. I would like to learn how to talk to any attractive woman I see be it a college girl or some model. This includes everything from the approach, cold or warm, in all sorts of venues, to building attraction through communication and how to put my personality out there. I don't seem to have that "oh my goodness what a cool guy" personality. Am I too emotional? Do I show to much emotion? Am I not reading the situation right? etc. While I have social intelligence, I want to be sure about what I am doing. How do I make it flow natural.

3. How to get girls on dates after getting numbers regardless of how long the interaction went. I hate this part. I've gotten tons of numbers but I just can't get them to respond, which happens, or know how to get it so they want to come out on a date or something.

4. How to appear less needy, ie searching for sex, but also showing interest and being sexual- This makes no sense to me. How to I talk to a girl I want to sleep with, without coming across as only wanting them for sex. Is it bad that the only reason I want to talk to girls at this point is to sleep with them? I have a very high sex drive and get frustrated real easy.

5. How to not care what others think of me, and to just let loose and overcome social anxiety (which I have worked quite a bit on.)
Good! Now we're getting somewhere ;)

1. In my opinion, one way to overcome negative thoughts is to DO positive things. Not think positive things. But DO them. This is one reason I suggested thinking about GIVING others a fun time or boosting their moods or energy. Think of it this way: Do you think people that regularly volunteer (such as homeless shelters, food banks, etc) feel negative all the time? Volunteering makes them feel good, right? Same idea here. I'm no expert, but that's my top suggestion here. Negative thoughts are basically impossible to reason with. So before committing days, months, years to trying to reason with your negative thoughts and getting nowhere, I recommend starting by DOING positive things. Such as, when you go out, don't go out to consume others... Go out to GIVE them a better night without expecting or wanting anything in return. Not sure what else you can do to feel better quicker.

2. Very nice job being clear with this question! Some easy answers here: A. You can read a bunch of articles on these subjects to generally familiarize yourself with the best things to say or do. B. That being said, you don't have that cool guy personality because you're too much in your own head. You're too caught up on outcomes and the details that you're ignoring that you MUST enjoy yourself, have fun, and not be outcome dependent. C. Understand that no matter how much you know or prepare, you're never going to be perfect. So don't sweat it too much.

3. Can't help here without more details. You'll want to post lots more details and examples in their own threads so we can see what you're doing and where you might be messing up. Right off the bat however, I can ask: Are these numbers all from the same source? Such as the same nightclub on the same night each week? If so, work on getting numbers from a different source (thus different types of girls). If the results turnaround, then it could have been those girls or that venue, and NOT necessarily you.

4. Great question. First off, being sexual does NOT equal neediness. Being sexual is like... you see a cute girl walk by, you make eye contact, wink, make a sexy smile, and say something like "hey girl. what's your name? are you single?" You know what I mean? Neediness is like the frustration you talked about. You ever talked to a needy person before? What's that like? They can't hold a smile and it feels like if you say the wrong thing they'll immediately get butthurt. It's pretty off-putting. For you to avoid this, you simply can't NEED these things in order to have a great night. Remember when I talked about Taking vs. Giving? Neediness is taking to the extreme. You're trying to take the girl for yourself and aren't offering her anything. You're being horribly selfish! Also notice how, again, this has nothing to do with sexuality. You have to flirt or be sexual because that's just how you communicate in an acceptable way what you're looking for. If girls "reject" you for this, it's not because you're being weird or offensive, it's just because that one girl isn't looking for the same thing at the moment. Great! On to the next one. Got to get through the girls that don't want to have sex with you right now in order to get to the ones that do!

5. You mean the people you're approaching? Easy. Do the Newbie Assignment. It starts easy then gradually pushes your comfort zone. This will dramatically help overcome your social anxiety and show you that you can do things you thought were outrageous or embarrassing and nothing bad happened. In fact, good things happened!

Great questions. Hopefully my answers helped and others can add more.
 

ray_zorse

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I think Adam, that the attitude of "I am totally fine except that XXX" is a kind of denial, it reminds me of exactly myself before GC -- as I WAS good at many things and was a decent conversationalist, etc, so I consciously saw myself as fairly confident and a good catch -- but this was belied by my actual behaviour around women. When away from the coal face I could sort of rationalize it and ignore the extent of the problem, but on the very few occasions I had an actual live girl with me that I could actually try to take to bed, I would do all the wrong things due to (1) lack of understanding of how women's attraction works (2) fear of rejection and (3) lack of confidence/self esteem.

That is why I recommended those resources. I certainly would not regard "No more Mr Nice Guy" as a dating manual and would not put it in the category with those other books you mentioned. If you want a dating manual I suggest Chase's e-book, basically his FIRST book, as I believe it is the best resource for a beginner -- it lays out an entire framework and worldview, from the basics, very lucidly, and in just a slim volume. As to ”No more Mr Nice Guy" it is more of an introduction to the basic concepts of toxic shame and codependence, but in an easy read (without emphasis on the technical).

I see you have more or less dismissed my advice as you do not see how it could relate to your situation. I expected that would happen. It is up to you. In regards to the rest of the conversation, the points you listed (as well as being basically 5 different ways of saying "how can I shed toxic shame and reduce codependent behaviours?") are things we all struggled with. All of those questions are precisely answered in Chase's ebook or (if you are willing to search through and distill the information) in the articles, the courses / purchasable videos, and forum posts on this site.

Actually, I think you would most benefit from studying how to converse with women in a manner that builds connection. For where you are at, this is an important skill and one you can study independently of the newbie assignment or lack thereof. Chase used to have a video product about this which I bought ages ago and thought was really good, although Chase himself wasn't super pleased with it as he had hired a producer for the project and felt the producer rushed things (or similar, you'd have to ask Chase for the exact story). But I took this material very much to heart and it helped me a lot, in fact I have always felt my conversation fundamental to be my most important, even though others such as gym, posture, eye contact are also important.

Anyway, it is over to you, nobody makes you accept mine or ElderPrice's opinions :) :)

Ray
 

AdamEngineer

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@ElderPrice

I sincerely appreciate the effort you took to write those responses. It is amazing the difference in perspective you get on here vs Non-pain sites.

Honestly, I think what it is I lack is within me, and its only my beliefs holding me back. My parents, my female friends, all agree that I have what I need, I just don't believe it myself.

1. Do positive things....You sound like my mother hahaha. Like when you say give value, what do you mean exactly? I know its not do them favors or buy them drinks. Is it as easy as having a meaningful conversation with no strings attached? Because I do know what that is. Its sometimes my dick thinks louder so I'm looking for my own needs in that aspect. I want it really bad so its hard to not expect anything. Sometimes my mind allows me to let go, but its hard going to the bar and doing that alone when you really don't got much in common with the basic sorority girls, etc.

2. Im way too much in my head. Im a thinker, always have been. Hence why Im an engineering student. Combine that with some negative thoughts and bam you gotta nice conflict. Definitely gonna be doing some reading when I have time away from a Steel Design Manual.

3. You got it, I'll post more.

4. Jesus, I already know how to do this, I've just gotta learn to loosen up a bit holy crap LOL. See, I was always concerned with being too sexual, which is a thing, but I thought that would turn off girls. Is flirting supposed to be obvious like "hey I saw you I think you're cute I wanted to say hi" and say it emotionless? with a gentle smile? Childish? Unless, don't think about it, just do what feels natural?

5. Not approach anxiety, but general social anxiety. Like that edgy feeling you get in your body out in public in loud places. Its gotten much better but I've learned to control it by simply maturing, and, going out alone and just well accepting the venue. Social anxiety puts me in my head sort to speak.


@ray_zorse

I'm not NOT taking your advice, I want to, I'm just clarifying that the problems I think I am facing I have the solution to already and just don't believe it. But yes what you said about attracting women, yes I do seem to have a lack of understanding. However, its more of a lack of self belief in what i can do than it is with the outcome. Because I've gotten some outcomes with almost no skill really, and no outcomes thinking I did a really good job. I'm a very detail oriented person. I am also a very liner person.


You guys are honestly the best. Until school ends, I will give the newbie assignments a try, I do not have the time commitment to learn a bunch of stuff now. Gym and School plus job applications takes priority. Cheers guys.
 

ElderPrice

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AdamEngineer said:
@ElderPrice

I sincerely appreciate the effort you took to write those responses. It is amazing the difference in perspective you get on here vs Non-pain sites.

Honestly, I think what it is I lack is within me, and its only my beliefs holding me back. My parents, my female friends, all agree that I have what I need, I just don't believe it myself.

1. Do positive things....You sound like my mother hahaha. Like when you say give value, what do you mean exactly? I know its not do them favors or buy them drinks. Is it as easy as having a meaningful conversation with no strings attached? Because I do know what that is. Its sometimes my dick thinks louder so I'm looking for my own needs in that aspect. I want it really bad so its hard to not expect anything. Sometimes my mind allows me to let go, but its hard going to the bar and doing that alone when you really don't got much in common with the basic sorority girls, etc.

2. Im way too much in my head. Im a thinker, always have been. Hence why Im an engineering student. Combine that with some negative thoughts and bam you gotta nice conflict. Definitely gonna be doing some reading when I have time away from a Steel Design Manual.

3. You got it, I'll post more.

4. Jesus, I already know how to do this, I've just gotta learn to loosen up a bit holy crap LOL. See, I was always concerned with being too sexual, which is a thing, but I thought that would turn off girls. Is flirting supposed to be obvious like "hey I saw you I think you're cute I wanted to say hi" and say it emotionless? with a gentle smile? Childish? Unless, don't think about it, just do what feels natural?

5. Not approach anxiety, but general social anxiety. Like that edgy feeling you get in your body out in public in loud places. Its gotten much better but I've learned to control it by simply maturing, and, going out alone and just well accepting the venue. Social anxiety puts me in my head sort to speak.


@ray_zorse

I'm not NOT taking your advice, I want to, I'm just clarifying that the problems I think I am facing I have the solution to already and just don't believe it. But yes what you said about attracting women, yes I do seem to have a lack of understanding. However, its more of a lack of self belief in what i can do than it is with the outcome. Because I've gotten some outcomes with almost no skill really, and no outcomes thinking I did a really good job. I'm a very detail oriented person. I am also a very liner person.


You guys are honestly the best. Until school ends, I will give the newbie assignments a try, I do not have the time commitment to learn a bunch of stuff now. Gym and School plus job applications takes priority. Cheers guys.
No problem at all! Great response on your end! You probably won't believe me, but you and I are INCREDIBLY similar in where we're at and where our sticking points are. Check out my Journal if you're interested. So I'm VERY motivated to help you. The more I can help you the more hopeful I will be that I can finally get somewhere with all this myself one day!

1. Examples of giving value could include:
- Sincere compliments. Think about it this way: If you're walking down the street and someone compliments your brand new shoes that took you months to find and hundreds of dollars to save up, how would you feel? That compliment would ADD to your day and make it better than it otherwise would have been.
- Dancing with a girl. If you're standing still at a club looking bored or miserable and a girl comes up to you, gives a cute smile, and starts spinning you around, how would you feel? You'd feel better. She ADDED to your experience.
- Organizing an outing with friends. Most people don't really have plans and are too scared to organize something to do. That's why when we get invited to things we feel special. It feels good to be invited to something. So invite your friends to join you at a restaurant for dinner or to come over to play video games. That ADDS value to their day.
- Being sexual can also count as giving value. If you're walking down the street and a super cute girl starts flirting with you, is your day ruined? No! She GAVE YOU a fun experience that day. You'll probably remember it the rest of the day. Even if you're married, or have a girlfriend, or gay, it is still a cool experience that makes your day better than otherwise. By being fun and flirty with all women you encounter, you ADD to their day. Easy experiment to confirm this: Talk playfully with much older women, like grandmothers. Notice how much they love that shit and it makes their day? It happens to younger girls too! So don't be afraid to flirt!

Regarding your strong desire, embrace it but embrace it CORRECTLY. The WRONG way to embrace your strong sexual desire is to let it show in your individual interactions with girls. Then you're probably coming across as needy. Instead, use that energy as MOTIVATION to approach more girls. You use your strong desire to get laid to motivate you to approach more girls. You do NOT use it to beg girls to have sex with you.

Regarding not having much in common with sorority girls, are you sure about that? Or at least, are you sure you're not just assuming that? What if you made a list of all the things you DO have in common? Such as: Out of the thousands of years of human civilization you two happen to be alive at the exact same time. You two happen to go to the same school. You two happen to be at the same bar, at the same time, on the same night. DEEP DIVING is when you find the other similarities that you'd never know of without asking, such as: Maybe you two love scifi. Maybe you two are from the same hometown. Maybe you two have the same favorite food. Maybe you two are at the same place in life - trying to personally grow and try new things. You two could have a TON of things in common but you'll never know because you didn't walk up, say hi, and start a conversation with her.

4. You know what the actual correct answer is here? You have to go out and experiment. You could read every article from every dating coach in the world and they could all say direct approaches like the one example you came up with work best. Definitely. All the time. But then when you try it, it never works and you find indirect approaches work great for you. There is no absolutely correct answer. A tactic could work 80% of the time, but you for whatever reason just might be in that 20% of guys it just doesn't work for. Interestingly, this is why reading articles and watching videos should always come SECONDARY to going out and trying things out yourself.

5. Sounds like comfort zone pushing to me. That or, you're going out with unreasonable goals.
 

AdamEngineer

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Feb 22, 2019
Messages
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So I agree with giving value, and actually, that is what I aim to do, I just never seem to get to that point. Does being shy, even while giving, come off as needy? Desperate? Low Energy? Maybe its how I feel during the interaction.

Yes, all those things will make my day, but to a girl who gets hit on all the time, who guys try to dance with all the time, I don't think that value is equal other side of the aisle. Meaning, a hot girl coming up to me and asking to dance doesn't work exactly the same way for a guy. But I totally get what you mean. I guess the hardest thing for me is getting the ball rolling. Even if I was on the dance floor, going up to every cute girl I see asking to dance is weird, cause dancing usually means grinding.

Most guys stand still, I'll usually open girls within my vicinity looking for proximity changes as this is how I judge. If I'm just standing around even not dancing I'll notice girls conglomerate near me or around me. Hell often they bump into me when they have plenty of room. Even then I'm still hesitant because I've gotten denied from asking those girls too as if I read the situation wrong.

Basically, I understand how to give value, I'm just way to nervous about doing it and getting the ball rolling. Its incredibly nerve wracking and thats what I can't overcome. I guess because its kind of a small venue, or the fact the girls are never alone. What bothers me too is girls notice your behavior, and if I go up to every cute girl and open them it looks needy. Its just a pain.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
AdamEngineer said:
So I agree with giving value, and actually, that is what I aim to do, I just never seem to get to that point. Does being shy, even while giving, come off as needy? Desperate? Low Energy? Maybe its how I feel during the interaction.

Yes, all those things will make my day, but to a girl who gets hit on all the time, who guys try to dance with all the time, I don't think that value is equal other side of the aisle. Meaning, a hot girl coming up to me and asking to dance doesn't work exactly the same way for a guy. But I totally get what you mean. I guess the hardest thing for me is getting the ball rolling. Even if I was on the dance floor, going up to every cute girl I see asking to dance is weird, cause dancing usually means grinding.

Most guys stand still, I'll usually open girls within my vicinity looking for proximity changes as this is how I judge. If I'm just standing around even not dancing I'll notice girls conglomerate near me or around me. Hell often they bump into me when they have plenty of room. Even then I'm still hesitant because I've gotten denied from asking those girls too as if I read the situation wrong.

Basically, I understand how to give value, I'm just way to nervous about doing it and getting the ball rolling. Its incredibly nerve wracking and thats what I can't overcome. I guess because its kind of a small venue, or the fact the girls are never alone. What bothers me too is girls notice your behavior, and if I go up to every cute girl and open them it looks needy. Its just a pain.
Being shy is definitely low energy. But it's not neediness. Have you ever tried warming up before? Like REALLY tried it? I'm naturally shy but the shyness goes away quickly after opening people and getting the ball rolling.

Regarding your second paragraph - Nope! You're in your head assuming what a girl's life is like but in reality you have NO IDEA how her day has been going up until that point. Yeah a cute girl might get "hit on" all the time, but maybe it's really rare for her to receive a sincere compliment from a guy living in abundance who actually wants to get to know who she is. You know what I mean? And besides, what's the alternative? Is your brain actually rationalizing you to NOT talk to a girl because of the imaginary world you created in your mind??? It's insane if you think about it! If you see a girl you like, approach her. Open her. She will either be interested or not. It's really that simple. Don't make it more complicated by letting your brain create fantasies in your head! Also also, it might help to give yourself a little pride. You're not some weak ass pussy that cries when the world doesn't work in your favor. You're AdamEngineer. You have high aspirations, a huge pair of balls, and you KNOW what you want in life. So because you're so fucking awesome, if you see a stunning girl, you approach her! Period. End of story. Because that's what AdamEngineer, the man with the giant pair of balls, does!

Regarding dancing - When I said dancing, I meant something more elegant than grinding. I meant partner dancing. With turns and spins and dips and stuff. And I didn't mean to ask every girl to dance.

Regarding your last paragraph, yep that's true! It's nerve racking and it might look needy if a girl notices you only talking to pretty girls. You know why it looks needy? Because in that case you're Taking. You're communicating through your actions that you have a need for a pretty girl in your life. That's the only reason why you'd only approach hot girls. Instead, who's the guy that ATTRACTS women to him? It's the guy who Gives. The guy who Gives everyone in the venue a good time and better night, not just the hot girls. So on this point, you know how you can warm up, get the ball rolling, and approach girls in groups with much less nerves? Start by talking to guys. At every venue you'll ever go to, there's always guys standing around alone. Talk to them first. Introduce yourself and have a conversation. If you see a group, approach it with the goal of meeting the guy. Do this a few times and you should actually FEEL yourself warming up and the girls getting less nerve racking to approach.
 

AdamEngineer

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Feb 22, 2019
Messages
40
Thanks for the information. That makes sense. Its funny when you said open everyone in the venue, not just hot girls, that if I'm feeling good, that naturally tends to be the vibe. Theres a separation of outcome whether you talk to a girl or not. What I find that with this separation, unless you try very hard, its impossible to look needy, even if you talk to every hot girl (which I haven't) because of the way you'd carry yourself. Although, if you pinball every girl in the bar, desperate or not, it just looks bad. You'll be "that guy."

But check this out, this happened on Saturday night:

I went out with a female friend of mine. I pre-gamed harder than I usually do because I felt like getting a strong buzz. I felt good leaving for the bars. I find that I become very talkative when I drink, I'm not as shy (low energy was the best way to put it, introverted is what I am).

Anyway I opened one girl next to be at the bar, went fine. Didn't care if I got her number or anything she wasn't the prettiest at all but it was the conversation that mattered. Then I left to the club bar, which is a college bar with a dance floor.

Bro, I ended up grinding on 4 different girls. One girl I opened on the dance floor, and we really didn't exchange any words other than a basic hello or whats up. I forget how it happened but she pulled me to come dance with her. Then she left, came back 2 minutes later, pulled me again, pushed me on to her friend whom I danced with a short time. Then she came back again but I have no idea what the hell this girl was doing but I thought it was funny. I didn't care that she left. Its such a free feeling to be able to have fun like this and not care.

Five minutes later these girls were taking a snapchat and one of them backed-walked while about five feet right into me (while filming her friends) and I just went for it and what do you know she was into it. Grinding on me while snapping her friends. She was hot but again it was only a short time. She left before anything. I find that hot girls like that never stick to one guy for the whole night, not saying they're grinding every guy, if they even dance at all.

This last girl was in a group, cute, for my taste. She invited me into the group. My other female friend at this point was on her own with other people which was ok. So this girl and I end up partner dancing like you mentioned which I have always preferred its so much more intimate than grinding only. We danced for about fifteen twenty minutes. I got her number when she left. She texted me saying "thanks for a great end to the night!" And we've been texting a bit. What amazes me is you know when a girls is interested. You just do. Even texting wise, you get investment and can tell the difference.

As fun as that all was, it was unexpected. The hardest thing for me is getting that flow of "I don't care" attitude. I think it comes from low energy and you could be absolutely right. Next time I would like to go out alone and actually talk but again that's the hardest thing doing it alone.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
Nice job my man! Sounds like a great outing to me!

Is going out alone really that difficult for you? It sounds like all your interactions from that night occurred when you were AWAY from your female friend. You were interacting with new girls ALONE! But regardless, go at your own pace. If that's too difficult, then you don't have to do that immediately on your next night out. Push your comfort zone, but push it to whatever extent you feel comfortable with.... as long as you're pushing it.
 
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