A different way of conceptualizing women's "tests"

Bboy100

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For a number of years now, I've had a problem with the concept of women "testing" men. When I say "testing". I basically mean the idea that women will consciously or unconsciously poke at men's boundaries via challenging a man on his beliefs, actions, capabilities, or more commonly, by behaving in a way which is inappropriate- a more assertive, well grounded man will hold the line, a less confident guy will crumble and give in to the women's challenge, thus accepting her frame, behavior etc. because he can't tolerate the discomfort of standing up to her.

There has always been some truth to this in that women do like men who are assertive, know what they stand for, and can express strong boundaries when necessary. And, we do see behavior all the time which appear to be "tests". My issue was the idea that women will intentionally foster these situations. I take issue with this for two reasons:

1. It frames the interaction as a zero-sum game. If the man "passes" the test, he "wins" the verbal or social spar, thus causing the women to be more attractive to him. But it also assumes we've exposed the women for having done something really stupid or unacceptable, either subtly or very overtly, thus lowering her status and making her look like a fool. Conversely, if the man fails, the women "wins" and it brings to light the man's insecurity and uncertainty in his identity and his values, thus making him look weak or otherwise immasculated. I don't believe social interactions are like this on a global level. There are of course, a minority of individuals and communities who view them in such terms due to personal life backgrounds and experiences, but it is by no means global. Neither to men nor women. We are social animals who by default, are cooperative and want to have friends, lovers, and allies. If one of us always has to look foolish or weak for mating to occur and for relationships to be sustained, this will make said relationships very unstable, which is not evolutionarily adaptive. Thus, I don't think it makes sense that we would "test" one another in the form of verbal or social sparring.


2. It's not a very good strategy for women. Because even if the man passes the test, and she finds out he has good boundaries, this makes her look unnattractive!! To illustrate this, I'll give you guys an from my life example:


A few weeks ago, I met this girl from a dating app at a bar. Long story short, she insisted that I pay for her drinks. When I asked her to pay for her this one since I got the last round, she rolled her eyes, looked at the bartender like I just killed her cat, tried to frame it as "offensive" that I won't pay for all her drinks (even though she ordered three of them within the course of 15 minutes), yelled at me etc. By the end of it, she said "I think this date is over". So I said...okay, that's fine. Good to meet you. I picked up my jacket and walked back to my car. Thirty seconds later, she texts me "come back". She apologizes for her behavior, kisses my hand, and I take her home shortly after. Because of the way she behaved, I deemed her unattractive for anything other than a hookup, so I didn't see her again. If she had behaved like a normal human being, I may have given her a second chance and perhaps been open to dating her and getting to know her further.


Almost all "tests" make the women look like a lower quality mate to the male. Even the more subtle ones. Thus, intentionally fostering situations like the above would not be adaptive for women because they would miss out on relationships with the very men they're trying to screen for with their "tests", just like the girl in my example did. So it's more likely that when women "test" men, they're actually somehow being genuine.


Okay then you might ask- why did my date do all that and why do women appear to "test" men in general? Well it's simple. Because from one place or another, they learned to deal with men or maybe even people in general by behaving this way. By poking and prodding at boundaries. The fact of the matter is, it can work. Most people are not very good at saying no. They probably usually get away with it, and get what they want. Or, as is case most of the time, especially when the "test" is more subtle, it's simply a mismatch in values or belief systems, and she is just standing up for what she wants and believes in. She's not using it as a direct test. She's just being herself!

In the case of the girl from my example, I'm almost 100% sure that she was just trying to get free drinks from me and wasn't at all attracted to me to begin with. It was only after what appeared to be a "test' (but is actually just her normal way of interacting with men) that she became very attracted to me because her normal behavior coincidentally gave me an opportunity to reveal that I won't put up with nonsense and I will stand up for myself, which is attractive. Alternatively, maybe she was legit raised in a family where the man is expected to foot the bill, and it is considered "offensive" if they don't. Either way, it was not an intentional challenge nor is it abnormal behavior to her. It's who she is.

So to conclude, perhaps a better way to frame women's tests is as such:

Women will sometimes behave in ways such that they test your boundaries because sometimes, their belief systems or established patterns of interacting with men do not jive with yours. If you're able to assert clear boundaries and stand by what you say you believe in, this will demonstrate assertiveness, self-confidence, and good boundaries which will in turn cause her to be attracted to you


Behaviorally, this doesn't change what you do. But Philosophically, it helps because it frames the interaction as mutually beneficial, as opposed to a verbal spar. And, it frames women as more sincere and honest, as opposed to inherently manipulative and ingenuine like the old school definition does.

On final caveat: I do believe that some women legit test men as per the traditional conceptualization at least some of the time. But this is not by any means a universal behavior. This is limited to a certain type of women with a certain type of view about men and relationships- usually very cynical. Depending on who you are and who you hang out with, you might run into this type of women a lot. Especially if you are young and in college, live in low socio-economic communities which experience lots of trauma and mental illness in general, and/or meet women at bars and clubs. But even in those settings, there are plenty of women who don't behave this way. I would recommend finding new social groups if this type of behavior is super common to you.

Also, if all of this is new information and it has been covered in recent articles, I apologize for rehashing it. I haven't had time to catch up on some of the latest material, therefore I may have missed it. Credit for all this goes to whoever wrote the article :)

Let me know what you think! I will try my best to reply, but I don't get back to you soon, know that I did read your comment. And I will eventually get to it.
 

rockstar

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Very interesting perspective. I agree with your interpretation of that interaction, but I'm not sure if I'm convinced it applies to all shit tests.

I find it funny that a lot of things that get called "shit tests" when girls say them, are called "teasing" when the guy does it (obviously not your example). When a girl's being playful/fun/teasing and joking is it really a shit test? Yeah, if you get insecure/butthurt or eagerly jump up to qualify she's going to lose attraction, but if you tease a girl and she can't handle it and gets all defensive, it's probably gonna cause a drop in your attraction for her as well.
 

Bboy100

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Rockstar,

You're totally right! As you pointed out, it's weird that we call that a shit test To me, teasing/flirting is part of regular interactions with human beings. In fact, most guys will even do that to each other. We'll make jokes at each other's expense in good fun. It's a way to build comradery. So I guess in a way it is a "test" in that the women gets to see if you have the social intelligence to understand that she's just being playful and if you enjoy the same type of humor as her. But it's also an invitation for you to be play and be flirty yourself! To connect with her on a different level. To have fun. It's cooperative in nature, and it's done in good spirit. It usually means she's comfortable with you and she wants to add some spice to the interaction to make it more intriguing. It's not done with the ingenuine, manipulative intent that the traditional definition of a " shit test" would describe. It's certainly not an adversarial social or verbal competition designed to make you crack, nor is there an implied winner or a loser as per the traditional definition. And that's at the core of what I'm trying to reframe here :)
 

Grand Pooba

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Bboy100 said:
A few weeks ago, I met this girl from a dating app at a bar. Long story short, she insisted that I pay for her drinks. When I asked her to pay for her this one since I got the last round, she rolled her eyes, looked at the bartender like I just killed her cat, tried to frame it as "offensive" that I won't pay for all her drinks (even though she ordered three of them within the course of 15 minutes), yelled at me etc. By the end of it, she said "I think this date is over". So I said...okay, that's fine. Good to meet you. I picked up my jacket and walked back to my car. Thirty seconds later, she texts me "come back". She apologizes for her behavior, kisses my hand, and I take her home shortly after. Because of the way she behaved, I deemed her unattractive for anything other than a hookup, so I didn't see her again. If she had behaved like a normal human being, I may have given her a second chance and perhaps been open to dating her and getting to know her further.

Bboy100 said:
It's not a very good strategy for women. Because even if the man passes the test, and she finds out he has good boundaries, this makes her look unnattractive!!

Because women, like men, are also not perfect at dating and the game, and most of them also base their dating strategy around "normal men" which clearly you are not the kind she normally meets. Remember that they're human too - they're not perfect, and they don't know everything about men either :).

Anyway, I found your story funny - I would personally have just laughed and carried on the meet, and treated her like a little silly girl, rather than making a big deal out of it. Either way you got the lay, so Kudos!

I do agree that it's unattractive, anyway.
 

Bboy100

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GP,

Yeah, laughing it off would've been another option lol (although that's personally not my style). I decided to leave because I was genuinely turned off by her behavior. For me, putting in effort to seduce a girl who's company I don't enjoy is usually not worth it to me anymore. I normally only spend time with girls who I see a potential dating relationship which extends longer than one night. The only reason I went back in with this one is because I knew when she texted me "come back" that she was basically DTF, so it wasn't going to require any further effort on my part. And I was right lol. She invited herself back to my place 5-10 mins later.

Plus tbh, I kinda wanted to see what she would do cause even though her behavior was a turnoff, it was also pretty funny and entertaining. And she didn't disappoint. After she kissed my hand and apologized, I asked her what changed her mind. And she said "because you walked away". And when I asked why that matters, she said " You leaving helped me realize what I was missing out on". XD
 

Franco

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Bboy,

The only thing I would caution here is ruling out potentially great relationship candidates based on their behavior prior to sex. The way a girl behaves with a man that she knows (assumes?) wants to get inside her pussy is vastly different from the way a woman behaves with a man that has already been inside her -- especially if he gave her jarring and earth-shattering orgasms.

So in a way, these really are just "tests," but women aren't generally conveying them consciously that way. They are not saying to themselves, "it's time to test this guy to see if I want to sleep with him," they are simply interacting with a man who is obviously interested in sleeping with her, so she's is engaging him in a way she deems necessary to engage a man that is vying for that opportunity. And of course, one of the most attractive traits to a woman is a man who doesn't need her pussy (because he will presumably get it somewhere else and with someone else -- possibly with someone more attractive than her), so that will instantly increase attraction.

After sex though, the frequency and type of tests you receive from a woman largely depend on the way you manage the relationship. If you manage the relationship very well, then she'll have less to test you on, and she'll enjoy the man who initially passed her tests prior to sex in a sexual manner... because remember, she really does want sex with a high-value guy. You just need to show her that you're that high-value guy, and how she behaves post-coital will really reflect the way she genuinely feels about a man like you.

As you get better at assessing women purely from dates and short interactions, you might be able to filter out potential girlfriend candidates prior to sex. But if you really want to get to know a girl, you'll probably have to see her at least a few times after you first have sex to see how she actually will treat you when she has completely deemed you as a high-value, sexy guy that wants to spend more time with her.

EDIT: I'm not sure if there are any articles that directly address your post, but the closest one I can think of is a bit of an older one by Chase, but still a good one:


Cheers,

Franco
 

Grand Pooba

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Bboy100 said:
Plus tbh, I kinda wanted to see what she would do cause even though her behavior was a turnoff, it was also pretty funny and entertaining. And she didn't disappoint. After she kissed my hand and apologized, I asked her what changed her mind. And she said "because you walked away". And when I asked why that matters, she said " You leaving helped me realize what I was missing out on". XD

BB - I hope you realize how cool this is. This is another gambit/tactic that you can build into your model - think of it as "if a girl tests me in a shitty way, I could react in this way to make her chase after me and completely flip the frame."

Pretty cool, because even this girl admitted to it.

Also, what Franco wrote is 100% true. You have to remember that when girls are testing you in this particular way...

Bboy100 said:
A few weeks ago, I met this girl from a dating app at a bar. Long story short, she insisted that I pay for her drinks. When I asked her to pay for her this one since I got the last round, she rolled her eyes, looked at the bartender like I just killed her cat, tried to frame it as "offensive" that I won't pay for all her drinks (even though she ordered three of them within the course of 15 minutes), yelled at me etc. By the end of it, she said "I think this date is over". So I said...okay, that's fine. Good to meet you. I picked up my jacket and walked back to my car. Thirty seconds later, she texts me "come back".

...the issue is attainability, not value. Meaning, she saw you as a high value guy who wouldn't do what you did - what low value guys do - and she was offended because you hurt her self esteem, forcing her to play the auto-rejection hand and protect herself. It's actually a compliment to you.
 

Seppuku

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Hey BBoy,

Welcome back!

I loved your example. To add to the great viewpoints stated by Franco and GP (which I agree with), I would like to state an alternative way to interpret this story: collision of frames. In the world of frames, it looks like this:

Her frame: "I'm a little princess. Kiss my ass and buy me drinks."
BBoy's frame: "If you don't like it, here is the door, babe!" - outcome independent man! Couldn't care less if she walks.
GP's frame: "Hahaha you're such a cute and silly little girl! I like you!" - he establishes some sort of benevolent paternal authority and frames her as a little girl.
Most men's frame: "Your desires are orders. Here's your drink." - he submits to her frame, implicitly putting her on the pedestal.

Two frames collide. The strongest frame wins. The person with the weakest frame submits. In your case, your frame was strongest. Grand Pooba's frame would probably have done well, too. The typical man would submit to her frame - after that, they both hold it as untold but established fact that she is a little princess. And next step, she holds an ascendant on him and can get him do more things for her.

Now, frame collisions can sometimes be viewed as tests, but not always. Sometimes, they are really made to induce you into a certain behavior (here, to put the guy in the subservient frame, then later have him do things for her).

The only reason she does that, is because she already knows it works! This is because most guys out there have no idea of the dynamic at play, and would get trapped by her frame. She knows this, and knows she can use this to her advantage.

You must have taken her by surprise when you successfully rejected her frame, and she's not used to it! She then completely changed the way she perceived you.

Good job.
Seppuku
 

Grand Pooba

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Seppuku said:
Hey BBoy,

Welcome back!

I loved your example. To add to the great viewpoints stated by Franco and GP (which I agree with), I would like to state an alternative way to interpret this story: collision of frames. In the world of frames, it looks like this:

Her frame: "I'm a little princess. Kiss my ass and buy me drinks."
BBoy's frame: "If you don't like it, here is the door, babe!" - outcome independent man! Couldn't care less if she walks.
GP's frame: "Hahaha you're such a cute and silly little girl! I like you!" - he establishes some sort of benevolent paternal authority and frames her as a little girl.
Most men's frame: "Your desires are orders. Here's your drink." - he submits to her frame, implicitly putting her on the pedestal.

Two frames collide. The strongest frame wins. The person with the weakest frame submits. In your case, your frame was strongest. Grand Pooba's frame would probably have done well, too. The typical man would submit to her frame - after that, they both hold it as untold but established fact that she is a little princess. And next step, she holds an ascendant on him and can get him do more things for her.

Now, frame collisions can sometimes be viewed as tests, but not always. Sometimes, they are really made to induce you into a certain behavior (here, to put the guy in the subservient frame, then later have him do things for her).

The only reason she does that, is because she already knows it works! This is because most guys out there have no idea of the dynamic at play, and would get trapped by her frame. She knows this, and knows she can use this to her advantage.

You must have taken her by surprise when you successfully rejected her frame, and she's not used to it! She then completely changed the way she perceived you.

Good job.
Seppuku

Love this post. Lots to study and take note of here.
 

Jakeroviks

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I wouldn't say testing is a zero-sum game. In fact, it's a great strategy for the woman.

With a test, she either: A) Rules out a weak man that she wouldn't be attracted to, or B) Gets pursued by a strong man that she IS attracted to.

That being said, most girls don't do it consciously.
 

rockstar

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The only thing I would caution here is ruling out potentially great relationship candidates based on their behavior prior to sex. The way a girl behaves with a man that she knows (assumes?) wants to get inside her pussy is vastly different from the way a woman behaves with a man that has already been inside her -- especially if he gave her jarring and earth-shattering orgasms.

Wow, even for BBoy's situation? I can see you saying this if she just expected him to pay, but my first impression of the yelling and throwing looks to get the bartender involved was some kind of cluster B red flag. I know girls can be a lot more accommodating and submissive after you pass "tests" like that, but do you really think this girl could be a great relationship candidate? In my experience, girls like this will start causing drama once they feel secure in the relationship. But I could be wrong or thinking too much into this.
 

Franco

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rockstar,

Wow, even for BBoy's situation? I can see you saying this if she just expected him to pay, but my first impression of the yelling and throwing looks to get the bartender involved was some kind of cluster B red flag. I know girls can be a lot more accommodating and submissive after you pass "tests" like that, but do you really think this girl could be a great relationship candidate? In my experience, girls like this will start causing drama once they feel secure in the relationship. But I could be wrong or thinking too much into this.

Haha, maybe not for this particular woman. I wasn't there, so I have no idea.

But my point was mostly a generalization toward tests: they serve a purpose and are there for a reason, and it's not always an indicator that she will treat you that way forever or that that it is a personality flaw of hers, especially if you sleep with her. But even in Bboy's situation, it's totally possible this girl could have been an entirely different person toward him had he continued to see her casually for another few months. It's not something to bank on, but it's also not something that would be in the slightest bit surprising to me either. :)

- Franco
 
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