Help with banter vs. chase framing

BigS

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
140
Hey guys,

I have been going out and getting phone numbers pretty consistently with approaching during the day. However, sometimes the phone numbers dont result in dates. I wanted to make a little topic on building attraction during the initial encounter using techniques such as banter, chase framing and maybe deep diving.

First and foremost, I have been experimenting with chase framing because that's where I think the most bang for my buck is. A recent texting conversation of mine went like this:

Me: we still on for tomorrow? how was your Christmas?
Her: Yep, still free if you are. It was great- nonstop family for 48 hours so absolutely exhausted now haha but wouldn't have it any other way. How was yours?
Me: you must really want to go on this date with me if we're still going under those circumstances haha. it was good!
Her: Haha hoping to sleep in a little later tomorrow and catch ip on sleep. I get to work from home so shouldn't be too bad.

I chose to try a chase frame here because I saw that her first text showed a good amount of interest and my understanding is that chase framing is used to increase interest. Additionally, I did not feel like answering her question.

Do you guys think my comment constitutes chase framing or banter? Also, I would appreciate any tips on improving it as I'm not sure whether there was enough sexual humor or if it came off a little too confrontational. The whole chase frame/banter thing feels weird to me because I've never teased girls who I think are really attractive before.

Thanks for the help!

Seth
 

strictlyincreasing

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Oct 24, 2017
Messages
67
Chase framing is for talking, not texting. Go and read Chase's article on texting. Asking two questions in one text is a bad idea because she can dodge one of the questions as she did here. You also told her a joke, painting her as excited for the date, after she ignored your question. That's a bad move. Keep the texts as simple as possible. If you think that the text is too simple, check again. Can you make it even simpler? She seems to be giving you the "I'll let you know" treatment.
 

Hue

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Sep 21, 2016
Messages
1,453
Seth,

These texts look a-okay, other than the double question. She did reply with a lengthy text and answered both, though - so it worked in your favor because of how much she invested with that. Usually a bad move because texting is supposed to be low effort for both parties. Also, were you to speak like this in person, you might sound nervous or a bit awkward.

As for your chase frame, good use of it. You might have been able to be a little less technical-sounding in the wording or been more concise. She didn't give you a strong bite on it (that might have looked like, "yes, I can't wait (; " or something), but that's okay. I'd focus more on the fact that she didn't shut you down on it, her response overall is in a neutral direction.

Additionally, I did not feel like answering her question.
Yea I don't like having conversations about holidays over text either. Very middle-schoolish.

Do you guys think my comment constitutes chase framing or banter? Also, I would appreciate any tips on improving it as I'm not sure whether there was enough sexual humor or if it came off a little too confrontational. The whole chase frame/banter thing feels weird to me because I've never teased girls who I think are really attractive before.
Yea, for sure. I mean it's not like a Jesus fucked a bitch while spitting game from the cross level chase frame, but it's still a chase frame. Keep at it, learn to get a feel for when you can be more sexual, or should try to tone it down a bit.

Gauge, calibrate, and shoot.

EDIT: If your question was whether or not the comment was banter OR it was chase framing, they really are two in the same. Banter is general teasing / flirting you do with someone you're interested in or having fun with. Chase framing is a specific technique of banter to frame the individual as interested in your and/or more interested than you are in them.


strictlyincreasing,
Chase framing is for talking, not texting.
Says who? It's a stronger effect, you can see her reaction better, and it's more conducive for sexual tension in person.. but it's not that black and white man.
Go and read Chase's article on texting. Asking two questions in one text is a bad idea because she can dodge one of the questions as she did here.

She seems to be giving you the "I'll let you know" treatment.
Did we read the same texts?


Hue
 

BigS

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
140
Thanks for the replies guys (changed my Username but still the same person).

Hue,

I completely agree with you and thanks for the words of encouragement. I wanted to post an update on this today because I went on a date with the same girl last night and I'd consider it a FU. I was getting mixed signals re: her level of interest towards me, so I didn't escalate things physically and I don't think we'll be seeing each other again. Overall I just didn't feel like I was on my game.

It started out with the aforementioned texts and as Hue noted, she does seem pretty interested to me! Also, she is a HB9 and a lot hotter than the girls that usually go for me, so I'm notably more nervous going into this date which is uncharacteristic of me. My mindset was that "hopefully I can run some game and get her to become interested in me" rather than "I know she's already interested in me--this date is 100% going to end in a lay". I knew my mindset was wrong but I was having difficulty changing it.

We met at this romantic wine bar and when I arrive she is sitting at the bar on her phone. She's wearing a skin tight blue shirt and some grey jeans--not super sexual but she looked great. I greeted her and she gave me a hug with a smile, however her smile quickly went back to being serious and she looked back at the menu. This girl is several years older than me and in tech. Also, I should mention that when I first got her number last week, she was with her "best friend" who was like a 2-3 at best. So, Im starting to get the impression that this super hot single girl who's older than me is some sort of tech nerd who's also a little nervous that someone cold approached her for a date. Idk how that's possible but... here we are.

Anyways, the initial conversation goes well. I am still nervous (shit) so I find myself being a little hyperaware of the vibe that I am putting off (trying to be mysterious and tell her as little about myself as possible). However, I'm getting her to laugh a lot and I'm deep diving pretty comfortably. She seems very invested in the conversation and complies when I tell her to give me her hands so I can look at her nails/rings. However, she's sitting with her arms folded and doesn't really seem comfortable yet with our knees touching. Also, I am looking at her with serious eye contact that's probably screaming "fuck me, fuck me, fuck me" and her eyes seem to be darting all over the place as if she's not comfortable holding eye contact for very long. It's like she knows that if we hold it for long I'm going to make a move and she's not comfortable with that yet.

Overall, I'm getting the impression that this girl is comfortable talking to me and getting to know me, but her body language is closed off as if she's saying that she doesn't want to escalate physically yet. We had a couple of instances where the eye contact was solid and I could've grabbed her head for the kiss, but it just didn't seem right to do that with someone who has their arms folded and doesn't really seem comfortable with kino yet.

After about 45 minutes of this, we finish our wine and I tell her I know another bar down the road and we should get another drink there. She agrees to it but at this point I have it in my head that she's not really interested in me, so what's the point. The rest of our conversation at this second bar is awkwardly superficial because I'm not really interested anymore and she's getting that same vibe.

Anyway, I ask her if she wants to get out of here and she says she has to meet a friend. So I tell her "that's fine" and she leaves and I go take a piss. Went home and passed out.

--General Reflection--

1. I'm not really sure what went wrong during this date. I wasn't really on my game that day since I have been studying techniques hard and trying to incorporate them into my interactions. Therefore, I didn't feel like I was being present during my interactions and the girls may have thought that my mind was elsewhere, which it was sometimes. Any tips on studying game hard and then going into interactions with a clear mind, trusting that the game is present in your subconscious? I find this to be especially difficult. However, I run my best game when I simply act like myself and then when a situation arises, a game technique will just pop up into my conscious mind and it is the right one. This is when I feel like I am "on my game".

2. Any tips for getting this girl to feel more comfortable with physical touch and eye contact? I was thinking maybe there was some game we could play where we hold hands or stare into each other's eyes or something to make it less stressful for her. Our conversation made it seem like she was really interested in me, but her closed-off body language was preventing me from escalating physically.

3. After this FU and not feeling like I was on my game yesterday I am feeling kind of demoralized today and not really wanting to study/approach. Any tips on staying persistent with game even when things haven't been going your way for a little while?

Thanks guys,

Seth--> Don Draper
 

Hue

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Sep 21, 2016
Messages
1,453
Great job on providing so much detail. Some points of dialogue you thought were important tipping points would be helpful too. Next time, consider just writing it in the FR section and posting a link here if you'd like feedback - that way it will be easier for other people to find it!

Also, congrats on landing a date with a HB9 - that's fantastic.

My mindset was that "hopefully I can run some game and get her to become interested in me" rather than "I know she's already interested in me--this date is 100% going to end in a lay". I knew my mindset was wrong but I was having difficulty changing it.
Expecting sex isn't necessarily a good mindset either. It's great to be confident in your abilities, vibe, and character, but I think it was Hector that said "the day you expect sex is the day you no longer receive sex". You can be confident that you have the ability to seduce her, but her being interested =/= her being seduced.

I would argue the best mindset to go into a date to is, "I'm about to have fun with a new girl, let's see if I can lead her to bed". This way it's about enjoying yourself, with your radar on her signals to take escalation / sexual windows that you can jump through to get her in bed.

I am still nervous (shit) so I find myself being a little hyperaware of the vibe that I am putting off (trying to be mysterious and tell her as little about myself as possible). However, I'm getting her to laugh a lot and I'm deep diving pretty comfortably.
Unfortunately, being hyperaware can create rigidness and over-gaming, which she'll pick up on.

That's all good that your nervous with a beautiful girl since you're not quite used to it yet. Meditation & cold showers are two great ways to practice calming yourself and building up more resistance to stimuli that make you react in this way. Exposure though, is by far the best way to get over this.

Also, I am looking at her with serious eye contact that's probably screaming "fuck me, fuck me, fuck me" and her eyes seem to be darting all over the place as if she's not comfortable holding eye contact for very long. It's like she knows that if we hold it for long I'm going to make a move and she's not comfortable with that yet.

Overall, I'm getting the impression that this girl is comfortable talking to me and getting to know me, but her body language is closed off as if she's saying that she doesn't want to escalate physically yet. We had a couple of instances where the eye contact was solid and I could've grabbed her head for the kiss, but it just didn't seem right to do that with someone who has their arms folded and doesn't really seem comfortable with kino yet.
If she can't sustain ANY eye contact when you're giving her fuck me eyes then consider toning it down a bit. You might have created too much tension.

Being able to create tension is a great skill to have, but is used best when you ease the tension down to make her feel comfortable. Then doing this multiple times gets her more aroused and invested in you.

Two ways to break tension is by making a sexual joke, or making her laugh and touching her hand with a smile.
Laughter can be thought of as the release of tension.


If you felt the vibe during those moments where eye contact was good, maybe you should have gone for a kiss to open her up more - I've seen this work. It can break barriers.

But, since she was closed off, more often than not she isn't ready. Again I'd guess you built too much tension without releasing it.

After about 45 minutes of this, we finish our wine and I tell her I know another bar down the road and we should get another drink there. She agrees to it but at this point I have it in my head that she's not really interested in me, so what's the point. The rest of our conversation at this second bar is awkwardly superficial because I'm not really interested anymore and she's getting that same vibe.
Ahh, then you got in your head and what good vibes you had going dissolved. Sucks man, it happens.
Anyway, I ask her if she wants to get out of here and she says she has to meet a friend. So I tell her "that's fine" and she leaves and I go take a piss. Went home and passed out.
At least you shot your shot. Though with this as your closing point I'd say you probably just overthought some things and became too technically minded - asking a girl to come home with you when there's no vibe left almost never works.



Any tips on studying game hard and then going into interactions with a clear mind, trusting that the game is present in your subconscious? I find this to be especially difficult. However, I run my best game when I simply act like myself and then when a situation arises, a game technique will just pop up into my conscious mind and it is the right one. This is when I feel like I am "on my game".
Yo, when I started learning game I was the EXACT same way. I wanted to know everything right, this, second. I drown myself in GC articles and studied a million ways to do things and would go out on dates and try to synthesize them all together.

I remember hearing a great analogy about learning the aspects of game one thing at a time. Franco's podcast, I believe. You're building a ladder that you can use to climb up. To do that, you need to make each rung of the ladder really strong. So, it's important to take it one rung at a time, make it strong, and then keep building them as you go up the ladder. By the time you're at the top, you now have a super sturdy ladder that in most situations isn't gonna break on you.

Learning a shit ton of different ideas and techniques at once can work (I know because I've done it), but long term it really is better to go out, do your shit, and then come back with a FR to analyze what went wrong. Then you find a solution for that problem, and go back out to fix it.. until you run into your next problem. Rinse and repeat. Otherwise, you'll be spending time randomly building rungs in your ladder, when your bottom or middle section might not even support your weight. And as you may find, some of the rungs higher up the ladder may already be strong without you knowing it.

So - by keeping one thing in mind at a time when you go out and calming yourself with things like meditation and cold showers, you achieve more success in that one thing and don't cloud your head with all these conflicting technical skills / dogmas.
Any tips for getting this girl to feel more comfortable with physical touch and eye contact? I was thinking maybe there was some game we could play where we hold hands or stare into each other's eyes or something to make it less stressful for her. Our conversation made it seem like she was really interested in me, but her closed-off body language was preventing me from escalating physically.
Yea, like I said simply using humor and creating laughter along side touch and eye contact can ease her into being comfortable.

If you want a specific technique, try having a staring contest, and slowly start smiling once you're into it. She'll start smiling back, and then you can hit her with a full on >=) and she'll more than likely laugh and look away or bury her head in her hands. It's a simple & fun game I've seen go quite well.

After this FU and not feeling like I was on my game yesterday I am feeling kind of demoralized today and not really wanting to study/approach. Any tips on staying persistent with game even when things haven't been going your way for a little while?
I've found simply just going back out will eventually land you with minor success.

Then this turns into minor success --> momentum --> good vibe --> major success.

As far as a mindset, believe me I know how easy it is to be hard on yourself. Just recognize the fact that this is all part of the process, you're learning from your mistakes, and they benefit you abundantly. It's good you had that experience. Laugh at yourself for silly mistakes, grow from them, and carry on. Don't take yourself too seriously.

You're learning how to play a game. Like most games, you can't expect you'll always win (;


Keep it up champ.

Hue
 

BigS

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
140
Yo, when I started learning game I was the EXACT same way. I wanted to know everything right, this, second. I drown myself in GC articles and studied a million ways to do things and would go out on dates and try to synthesize them all together.

I remember hearing a great analogy about learning the aspects of game one thing at a time. Franco's podcast, I believe. You're building a ladder that you can use to climb up. To do that, you need to make each rung of the ladder really strong. So, it's important to take thing one rung at a time, make it strong, and then keep building them as you go up the ladder. By the time you're at the top, you now have a super sturdy ladder that in most situation isn't gonna break on you.

Learning a shit ton of different ideas and techniques at once can work (I know because I've done it), but long term it really is better to go out, do your shit, and then come back with a FR to analyze what went wrong. Then you find a solution for that problem, and go back out to fix it.. until you run into your next problem. Rinse and repeat. Otherwise, you'll be spending time randomly building rungs in your ladder, when your bottom or middle section might not even support your weight. And as you may find, some of the rungs higher up the ladder may already be strong without you knowing it.

Yo! This is literally the exact analogy that I need right now. I am on break from school right now, so I have been totally immersing myself in GC. This really hit the nail on the head for me, so I'm going to go out not trying to apply all of my skills at once and overgame, just enjoy the progress that Ive made so far.

Thanks so much man!

BigS
 
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