Push/Pull and Compliments

rond

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tl;dr: I think I over-complimented a girl during a first date, and want to know if pulling back on the second date will be push/pull.

********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Does push/pull have to be in succession over the course of one interaction, or can I do a sort of damage control where I was too complimentary the first date, but the next just invite her over to my place and give zero compliments to make her wonder what happened so she begins to chase/seek validation?

I'm 41 and 8 months out from my divorce. Had a date with a 29 year old I met on Tinder yesterday, who excitedly texted me seconds after I said I was going to check out such and such spot and let me know if she wants to come along.

It was daytime, and she had plans to go somewhere with her family in the afternoon. We went to several different venues within the span of a few hours, and the conversation flowed. I would do kino and pull back, but it wasn't time to kiss her till the end judging by her signals. When I did kiss her, she wasn't resistant, but seemed kind of luke warm despite putting her hand on my knee and kind of tracing patterns.

Even though I did tease, I'm now kicking myself because I did compliment her a few times and am wondering if I gave my value away. After I kissed her, I looked at her and told her she's beautiful before kissing her some more, and at another pause in the kissing, I said "I just like kissing you" and kissed her again. I also told her I was enjoying myself when she showed me a place she likes to go which I hadn't been to before.

She did say at the end to let her know if I want to hang out again, and then we ran into each other at a coffee shop after parting ways when she stopped in to get a cup on her way home, and she asked if she could sit with me.


In my own mind, I reframed it that a guy that has 10 girls chasing him might still fill in a morning slot just to have fun, and if he has abundance and doesn't care might very well say something like "I'm enjoying myself" if he is, or "i like kissing you" if he does, and then not give it another thought or care once he moves on to other things later that day and weekend.
 

Toby2030

Cro-Magnon Man
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Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
312
Aa thumb rule for myself is that as long as she's chasing me, I can escalate. However, if she stops chasing it's time for more push. So pretty much - Is she chasing you? No = more push. If yes, then you can escalate/pull
 

JacobPalmer

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Jun 24, 2019
Messages
375
I think you're in a good spot still, just invite her out again. The one thing you need to understand is your value and attainability. If she thinks you're super high value but not attainable then compliments will raise your attainability, but if you're high value and too attainable, then compliments could hurt you here.

I'd read up on attainability/value on GC.
 

ThePhoenix

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
305
rond,

Welcome aboard!

Just to add some overall constructive criticism on your game: you put too much emphasis on kissing and not enough on fucking. This is an extremely common mistake due to societal norms. I would suggest:

  1. Plan to have sex on the first date. In general, itʼs much easier to get laid on the first date, if you plan for it, than it is to get laid on the second. Often times, the second date never even happens! And if two or three dates have gone by and you still havenʼt gotten laid, youʼve completely lost out on the lover role and are now going for the provider role. This means sheʼll subject you to her rigorous boyfriend vetting process, will probably withhold sex indefinitely, expect commitment, and will also be pretty likely to just lose interest altogether.

  2. Escalate, but donʼt bother kissing. Itʼs cliché, it shows your cards, and it breaks tension. Iʼve seduced a girl, on the first date, literally with no kissing at all. Well, eventually sheʼs liable to go for a kiss once sex is minutes away, which is fine. Well, some guys kiss and still get results, but personally I think theyʼre just good enough to get results in spite of that mistake. At least give a try to laying off on the kissing.

As for compliments, hopefully it wasnʼt so much you made yourself look needy. Once you seem needy, youʼre done — itʼs the #1 killer of attraction! So yeah, Iʼd stop the compliments for a bit, and hopefully it wasnʼt too much. If you canʼt get her in bed on date #2, Iʼd call it a day, accept that you made too many mistakes, and find a new girl.

Cheers,
Phoenix
 

Fuck This

Cro-Magnon Man
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Messages
2,092
My rule for compliments is to not give them unless I really mean them. Deliver them with a gravitas when you are close and can accompany them with kino for the most effective emotional spike on her part.
For example:
If she's cooking dinner, hug and say "Babe that smells great." Usually she will reward that back with a hug and a kiss.
After doing a complicated dance move, pull her in tight and whisper in her ear "You nailed that!"
If she is looking hot in her outfit, "Damn you are rocking that LBD" as you grasp both her hands and make eye contact.

Deliver them in a low tone for her to hear, not people around you. You want to make the moment one of the two of you sharing an intimate thought about her performance or appearance. AND you want her to eat it up and not question your sincerity or motives.

My experience with delivering compliments in this fashion has been very successful and usually results in her hugging me tight and even initiating a kiss. I think it gives you some vulnerability but not too much.
 

rond

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Sep 15, 2019
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5
ThePhoenix said:
rond,

Welcome aboard!

Just to add some overall constructive criticism on your game: you put too much emphasis on kissing and not enough on fucking. This is an extremely common mistake due to societal norms. I would suggest:

  1. Plan to have sex on the first date. In general, itʼs much easier to get laid on the first date, if you plan for it, than it is to get laid on the second. Often times, the second date never even happens! And if two or three dates have gone by and you still havenʼt gotten laid, youʼve completely lost out on the lover role and are now going for the provider role. This means sheʼll subject you to her rigorous boyfriend vetting process, will probably withhold sex indefinitely, expect commitment, and will also be pretty likely to just lose interest altogether.

  2. Escalate, but donʼt bother kissing. Itʼs cliché, it shows your cards, and it breaks tension. Iʼve seduced a girl, on the first date, literally with no kissing at all. Well, eventually sheʼs liable to go for a kiss once sex is minutes away, which is fine. Well, some guys kiss and still get results, but personally I think theyʼre just good enough to get results in spite of that mistake. At least give a try to laying off on the kissing.

As for compliments, hopefully it wasnʼt so much you made yourself look needy. Once you seem needy, youʼre done — itʼs the #1 killer of attraction! So yeah, Iʼd stop the compliments for a bit, and hopefully it wasnʼt too much. If you canʼt get her in bed on date #2, Iʼd call it a day, accept that you made too many mistakes, and find a new girl.

Cheers,
Phoenix

Phoenix,

Thanks for the constructive criticism.

To gauge if I overdid the compliments or not, they were literally the ones I listed. 1) saying I was enjoying myself when she showed me around a place she likes to go to which she asked if she could take me to 2) saying "i just like kissing you" when I went in for more kissing and 3) calling her beautiful in between kisses.

As for escalating to a lay, it wasn't possible because she was saying she had plans for the afternoon to go to the state fair with her family and needed to get going by 1PM, (we met at 9AM), so I was trying to escalate with what I could in the moment, ie kissing, and trying to stretch it out a little further, hoping we could end up at either of our apartments.
 

ThePhoenix

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Messages
305
rond,

Depending on non-verbals, I donʼt see those compliments as necessarily too excessive... well, Iʼm not a fan of the kissing one, but thatʼs mainly because I simply think you were premature to kiss at all.

FT gave good points on complimenting. (LOL @ the clip!) I especially will second his point about sincere compliments working better.

I love black women and go for them specifically, but one thing that bugs me to no end is the high percentage of them that wear their hair straight or wavy. I love their natural kinky hair texture, and canʼt stand all the weave, wigs, lacefronts, relaxer and flat‑ironing that they do to get rid of it. So, when a black girl is wearing her hair out natural, itʼs pretty much automatic that I compliment that.

The odd time I take it a step further and actually express how much I love it over all the weave garbage you see everywhere. I find when I do this, most often they really open up. (I should do that more often!  LOL) When you compliment a girl in a way that shows you really notice and appreciate something about her, it works a lot better than half‑assed generic “filler” compliments.

About the date not being able to end at home, yeah, it happens sometimes. Who knows, she may have planned it that way on purpose due to not being totally sold before the date.

I try to plan dates in advance such that seduction will be possible. Iʼll happily refuse a date that I think wonʼt allow for seduction, because Iʼd rather go for a reschedule than take the risk of missing an escalation window.

If you only find out about a time constraint when you get to the date, then youʼre probably best off to make it a short date. Donʼt escalate much. End it on your terms, and leave her wanting more.

With all that said, I think you may be struggling to appreciate just how easy it is to get laid. If a girl shows up to a date, youʼre basically already 70% of the way there. Most girls who are not inclined to fuck you would not have even come that far. The remaining 30% of the way is relatively simple and doesnʼt require nearly as much as we tend to think it does.

I think all those venue changes were a waste of time, and if conversation was flowing well and she was accepting kino (not kissing), then by 10am or so, you couldʼve used some innocuous excuse to propose a short visit home, which seems even more harmless due to the time constraint. If logistics were ok to get home within 20 min. or so, you could probably have had her quite comfortable at home by 11am or so and could fairly easily have had sex before the 1pm she had to leave at. If youʼve never had an experience like that before I realize itʼs quite hard to really believe, but trust me, when you see what is possible, it will blow your mind. The experienced guys on here pull that off quite regularly.

Phoenix
 

Fuck This

Cro-Magnon Man
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Joined
Jul 24, 2015
Messages
2,092
So Looking forward after Date 1A and 1B....Date 2.....

invite her to your apartment to cook, or grill outside (before it get's too cold). Tell her you have the food covered, she is to bring the drinks, Alcoholic of course....And she is the designated Bartender...

What this does is make her invest, and perhaps inquire in what your tastes in alcohol might be. This is another "common interest builder" if you both like the same spirit. I'd recommend against beer (especially in 3.2 states) because a woman doesn't feel sexy when she is bloated on 6 beers, and has to pee every 15 minutes. Wine works ok...especially if you are cooking with it...
 

naturalmikey

Cro-Magnon Man
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Jun 9, 2019
Messages
815
i got out of a marriage at 34. i'm 37 right now. something you probably don't realize is how many young girls like older men. it's not the majority. but it's a lot.

anyway i'm just gonna be completely honest with my breakdown of what you wrote.

she is 29 years old. this is around the age where women have their epiphany. i'd say most girls begin it at 25 but once they get close to 30 it really hits home. that epiphany is that i traded my highest value years when i could've married a high value man for promiscuity. it doesn't mean she's not hooking up anymore. it just means she has started to come to terms with her biological clock and that it's time to mate with the highest value man who will marry her. this doesn't mean she won't casually date either. it just means she's gonna have a lot of cognitive dissonance around more promiscuous behavior because she know it doesn't advance her future goals.

so in this case of women in their late 20s and early thirties playing a safer beta provider style of game can be most effective. but the thing is she still wants an alpha lover. she wants the alpha lover she can tame into the beta provider. so you still want to show alpha characteristics with a potential for beta-ization. you actually do this through qualifying the girl. act surprised when you qualify her though. tell her things like she isn't like other girls. until your game is good i wouldn't compliment looks. i do it but i know what i'm doing. instead compliment her when she earns them. when she says something smart give her a hug and be like "wow you're actually smart." make her feel like she is trying to win you over. however, early on you are going to have to do some chasing. that's the way it works most of the time. some girls will chase immediately, but not 29 year olds unless you are 100% her type.

anyway i'd do a second date. but if she doens't fuck on the second date, cut her loose. it's not good for self confidence to be deep in the frame of chasing her.

this is what i do personally. i do night game and if the girl doesn't wanna hook up that night then i probably won't contact her again. there are exceptions. last night i got a really attractive 21 year olds number. but there was no way to get her away from her friends. she was in a large group but was willing to isolate at the bar with me. i made her buy her own drink. my phone is broken and i filed an insurance claim which i'm still waiting. so i wrote down her number on paper lol. i then actually pulled later at another bar. regardless i'll call that girl because i really like her and it was a situation she had no choice, she couldn't leave.

anyway you're not getting any younger. i'd try to get as much experience as you can quickly.
 

Overdoze

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
95
rond said:
tl;dr: I think I over-complimented a girl during a first date, and want to know if pulling back on the second date will be push/pull.

********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Does push/pull have to be in succession over the course of one interaction, or can I do a sort of damage control where I was too complimentary the first date, but the next just invite her over to my place and give zero compliments to make her wonder what happened so she begins to chase/seek validation?

I'm 41 and 8 months out from my divorce. Had a date with a 29 year old I met on Tinder yesterday, who excitedly texted me seconds after I said I was going to check out such and such spot and let me know if she wants to come along.

It was daytime, and she had plans to go somewhere with her family in the afternoon. We went to several different venues within the span of a few hours, and the conversation flowed. I would do kino and pull back, but it wasn't time to kiss her till the end judging by her signals. When I did kiss her, she wasn't resistant, but seemed kind of luke warm despite putting her hand on my knee and kind of tracing patterns.

Even though I did tease, I'm now kicking myself because I did compliment her a few times and am wondering if I gave my value away. After I kissed her, I looked at her and told her she's beautiful before kissing her some more, and at another pause in the kissing, I said "I just like kissing you" and kissed her again. I also told her I was enjoying myself when she showed me a place she likes to go which I hadn't been to before.

She did say at the end to let her know if I want to hang out again, and then we ran into each other at a coffee shop after parting ways when she stopped in to get a cup on her way home, and she asked if she could sit with me.


In my own mind, I reframed it that a guy that has 10 girls chasing him might still fill in a morning slot just to have fun, and if he has abundance and doesn't care might very well say something like "I'm enjoying myself" if he is, or "i like kissing you" if he does, and then not give it another thought or care once he moves on to other things later that day and weekend.

You seem to be confusing things.

Push pull is not a rule, just a tech that provides emotional roller coastering which CAN support some types of game. You dont need it. Far from. Especially not at a day game scenario.

And to think of it as a larger thing is possible but speculative. And a waste of time. Instead run better game faster. I understand youre trying to fix an error you think you made but playing it like that becomes a drag, spendign way too much effort, insecure and is inefficient.

Complimenting is NOT a problem. A key for girls is to be sure that youre into them. compliments help that. like sois do. Ofc. theres technique to good compliments eg being specific about things etc. but dont worry.

See eg how Cajun delivers an array of compliments to the girl at around 3.00+
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCyZdBjTwbM

Compliments do miss tension for many however but you can subvert that by vibing sexual tension through your presence and ec instead. this + compliments is way stronger than traditional pushpull. Add playfuldness and youre mixing a potent cocktail where you arouse, tease and compliment as a flow.

i use compliments a lot with high success eg. while mingling ( here i shoot it then move on before she responds and while its "fresh" aka not engaging her responses or protective feelings which is a sort of pull). Or while being bold. A key is the vibe you shoot them from like mentioned by others. Timing can be key too.

you can add playfuld teasing to the compliments as pushes. or challenges. then its pull push ;) + this enables good escalation prepping too. So many wins to it.

i think you need to realise what techs does and dont make too many rules from game theory - most of it is only a starting point for unfolding reality.A pointer. see and feel for yourself. this mean practicing a tech for awhile and sensing what it does/how it works.
 

rond

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Sep 15, 2019
Messages
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Overdoze said:
rond said:
tl;dr: I think I over-complimented a girl during a first date, and want to know if pulling back on the second date will be push/pull.

********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Does push/pull have to be in succession over the course of one interaction, or can I do a sort of damage control where I was too complimentary the first date, but the next just invite her over to my place and give zero compliments to make her wonder what happened so she begins to chase/seek validation?

I'm 41 and 8 months out from my divorce. Had a date with a 29 year old I met on Tinder yesterday, who excitedly texted me seconds after I said I was going to check out such and such spot and let me know if she wants to come along.

It was daytime, and she had plans to go somewhere with her family in the afternoon. We went to several different venues within the span of a few hours, and the conversation flowed. I would do kino and pull back, but it wasn't time to kiss her till the end judging by her signals. When I did kiss her, she wasn't resistant, but seemed kind of luke warm despite putting her hand on my knee and kind of tracing patterns.

Even though I did tease, I'm now kicking myself because I did compliment her a few times and am wondering if I gave my value away. After I kissed her, I looked at her and told her she's beautiful before kissing her some more, and at another pause in the kissing, I said "I just like kissing you" and kissed her again. I also told her I was enjoying myself when she showed me a place she likes to go which I hadn't been to before.

She did say at the end to let her know if I want to hang out again, and then we ran into each other at a coffee shop after parting ways when she stopped in to get a cup on her way home, and she asked if she could sit with me.


In my own mind, I reframed it that a guy that has 10 girls chasing him might still fill in a morning slot just to have fun, and if he has abundance and doesn't care might very well say something like "I'm enjoying myself" if he is, or "i like kissing you" if he does, and then not give it another thought or care once he moves on to other things later that day and weekend.

You seem to be confusing things.

Push pull is not a rule, just a tech that provides emotional roller coastering which CAN support some types of game. You dont need it. Far from. Especially not at a day game scenario.

And to think of it as a larger thing is possible but speculative. And a waste of time. Instead run better game faster. I understand youre trying to fix an error you think you made but playing it like that becomes a drag, spendign way too much effort, insecure and is inefficient.

Complimenting is NOT a problem. A key for girls is to be sure that youre into them. compliments help that. like sois do. Ofc. theres technique to good compliments eg being specific about things etc. but dont worry.

See eg how Cajun delivers an array of compliments to the girl at around 3.00+
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCyZdBjTwbM

Compliments do miss tension for many however but you can subvert that by vibing sexual tension through your presence and ec instead. this + compliments is way stronger than traditional pushpull. Add playfuldness and youre mixing a potent cocktail where you arouse, tease and compliment as a flow.

i use compliments a lot with high success eg. while mingling ( here i shoot it then move on before she responds and while its "fresh" aka not engaging her responses or protective feelings which is a sort of pull). Or while being bold. A key is the vibe you shoot them from like mentioned by others. Timing can be key too.

you can add playfuld teasing to the compliments as pushes. or challenges. then its pull push ;) + this enables good escalation prepping too. So many wins to it.

i think you need to realise what techs does and dont make too many rules from game theory - most of it is only a starting point for unfolding reality.A pointer. see and feel for yourself. this mean practicing a tech for awhile and sensing what it does/how it works.

Thanks for your reply; that makes a lot of sense.

One of stumbling blocks I've found up until now, has been that there's so much information out there, and so much of it is contradictory. For someone just getting back into meeting women like myself, this can be very overwhelming, as I'm willing and ready to put in the effort to learn, but learn what when it all goes against each other and I'm never quite sure who to listen to. Even within a single board which presumably follows a common system, there was such a varied response. What do I do when the Chase Amante camp is telling me one set of things, the RSD guys another, Todd Valentine something else, and then I have old schoolers like Ross Jeffries and so many others, each claiming he knows best?

I appreciate all the feedback, and I'm sure each of you is way, way ahead of me, but some things were hard to wrap my head around. Kissing being an anti-suduction mistake, for instance, I'm just not convinced by yet. Not only do I see so many experts using makeouts with girls they just met as a means of escalation, but even logically, doesn't kissing progress to sex, and so kissing a girl wouldn't be a turn-off?

I'm not arguing, merely asking, as that's how I'll process new information and learn.

I'm about halfway done with How to Make Girls Chase, and will finish it by the weekend. It is pretty long, but I'm sure I'll learn a lot. I'm also watching courses by RSD which I have a collection of.

I did text that girl from Saturday morning and invite her over to my place. She sent a long enthusiastic response, but said she's on call this week (she works at a medical clinic) and will be out of town for the weekend, and can we connect next week. I said absolutely and wished her a good trip and deleted her number, so if she gets back in touch I'll invite her, and if not then not, as I start with new girls.

Thanks all, and I welcome all feedback.
 

naturalmikey

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Jun 9, 2019
Messages
815
rond said:
Overdoze said:
rond said:
tl;dr: I think I over-complimented a girl during a first date, and want to know if pulling back on the second date will be push/pull.

********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Does push/pull have to be in succession over the course of one interaction, or can I do a sort of damage control where I was too complimentary the first date, but the next just invite her over to my place and give zero compliments to make her wonder what happened so she begins to chase/seek validation?

I'm 41 and 8 months out from my divorce. Had a date with a 29 year old I met on Tinder yesterday, who excitedly texted me seconds after I said I was going to check out such and such spot and let me know if she wants to come along.

It was daytime, and she had plans to go somewhere with her family in the afternoon. We went to several different venues within the span of a few hours, and the conversation flowed. I would do kino and pull back, but it wasn't time to kiss her till the end judging by her signals. When I did kiss her, she wasn't resistant, but seemed kind of luke warm despite putting her hand on my knee and kind of tracing patterns.

Even though I did tease, I'm now kicking myself because I did compliment her a few times and am wondering if I gave my value away. After I kissed her, I looked at her and told her she's beautiful before kissing her some more, and at another pause in the kissing, I said "I just like kissing you" and kissed her again. I also told her I was enjoying myself when she showed me a place she likes to go which I hadn't been to before.

She did say at the end to let her know if I want to hang out again, and then we ran into each other at a coffee shop after parting ways when she stopped in to get a cup on her way home, and she asked if she could sit with me.


In my own mind, I reframed it that a guy that has 10 girls chasing him might still fill in a morning slot just to have fun, and if he has abundance and doesn't care might very well say something like "I'm enjoying myself" if he is, or "i like kissing you" if he does, and then not give it another thought or care once he moves on to other things later that day and weekend.

You seem to be confusing things.

Push pull is not a rule, just a tech that provides emotional roller coastering which CAN support some types of game. You dont need it. Far from. Especially not at a day game scenario.

And to think of it as a larger thing is possible but speculative. And a waste of time. Instead run better game faster. I understand youre trying to fix an error you think you made but playing it like that becomes a drag, spendign way too much effort, insecure and is inefficient.

Complimenting is NOT a problem. A key for girls is to be sure that youre into them. compliments help that. like sois do. Ofc. theres technique to good compliments eg being specific about things etc. but dont worry.

See eg how Cajun delivers an array of compliments to the girl at around 3.00+
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCyZdBjTwbM

Compliments do miss tension for many however but you can subvert that by vibing sexual tension through your presence and ec instead. this + compliments is way stronger than traditional pushpull. Add playfuldness and youre mixing a potent cocktail where you arouse, tease and compliment as a flow.

i use compliments a lot with high success eg. while mingling ( here i shoot it then move on before she responds and while its "fresh" aka not engaging her responses or protective feelings which is a sort of pull). Or while being bold. A key is the vibe you shoot them from like mentioned by others. Timing can be key too.

you can add playfuld teasing to the compliments as pushes. or challenges. then its pull push ;) + this enables good escalation prepping too. So many wins to it.

i think you need to realise what techs does and dont make too many rules from game theory - most of it is only a starting point for unfolding reality.A pointer. see and feel for yourself. this mean practicing a tech for awhile and sensing what it does/how it works.

Thanks for your reply; that makes a lot of sense.

One of stumbling blocks I've found up until now, has been that there's so much information out there, and so much of it is contradictory. For someone just getting back into meeting women like myself, this can be very overwhelming, as I'm willing and ready to put in the effort to learn, but learn what when it all goes against each other and I'm never quite sure who to listen to. Even within a single board which presumably follows a common system, there was such a varied response. What do I do when the Chase Amante camp is telling me one set of things, the RSD guys another, Todd Valentine something else, and then I have old schoolers like Ross Jeffries and so many others, each claiming he knows best?

I appreciate all the feedback, and I'm sure each of you is way, way ahead of me, but some things were hard to wrap my head around. Kissing being an anti-suduction mistake, for instance, I'm just not convinced by yet. Not only do I see so many experts using makeouts with girls they just met as a means of escalation, but even logically, doesn't kissing progress to sex, and so kissing a girl wouldn't be a turn-off?

I'm not arguing, merely asking, as that's how I'll process new information and learn.

I'm about halfway done with How to Make Girls Chase, and will finish it by the weekend. It is pretty long, but I'm sure I'll learn a lot. I'm also watching courses by RSD which I have a collection of.

I did text that girl from Saturday morning and invite her over to my place. She sent a long enthusiastic response, but said she's on call this week (she works at a medical clinic) and will be out of town for the weekend, and can we connect next week. I said absolutely and wished her a good trip and deleted her number, so if she gets back in touch I'll invite her, and if not then not, as I start with new girls.

Thanks all, and I welcome all feedback.

i got really good with rsd. the flawless natural by tim is a really good guide to beginner game. pimp by rsd julien is similar. old rsd content can provide a really good foundation.
 

rond

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Rookie
Joined
Sep 15, 2019
Messages
5
Yeah, I'm watching Pimp now, and have Tim's Flawless as well but haven't listened yet. I think I'll use these RSD videos to get grounded first. This 400 page book is getting too boring. I can read big books if they're Proust or Dumas, but 400 pages on game gets tedious when there are these video courses and I think their style is going to work better for me.
 

Overdoze

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
95
I appreciate all the feedback, and I'm sure each of you is way, way ahead of me, but some things were hard to wrap my head around. Kissing being an anti-seduction mistake, for instance, I'm just not convinced by yet. Not only do I see so many experts using makeouts with girls they just met as a means of escalation, but even logically, doesn't kissing progress to sex, and so kissing a girl wouldn't be a turn-off?

Its a half truth in my book that follows most peoples lack of understanding proper escalation.

one point is that Kissing releases sexual tension. so does touch if "flat"(vs. slow tracing eg). this limits the building up of arousal and delaying the gratification (the kiss) and letting it sizzle in the air more is way more turn on. The idea developed from guys who contain their sexuality more is that kissing may deplete her vs build up arousal. It satisfies her partly and enables her "stop" buttons more vs making her deepen into sensual states through less release (kino kissing etc) when it happens in non sex locations and is not a flow of escalations that leads to sex. others could prob add more to it but just my perception of it. which is also the thinking behind how i escalate around kissing. Which is i tend to wait until im at a place for sex if i wanna make the pull. if not - i just enjoy it.

my point would be to be more aware of it. if a girl is in beast mode it doesnt matter. At other times i contain kissing a lot using the sissle of the air between us(sexual tension) instead. Or finish the kiss first making her hunger for more.
 

naturalmikey

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Jun 9, 2019
Messages
815
vin di carlo escalation ladder can be downloaded here for free https://pualib.com/pp.php?v=618401980

a lot of infield is what is called flash game. it looks good but it's low probability.

when i was learning game i found that if i went for the makeout i wouldn't get laid. i also found that if i bought the girl a drink i wouldn't get laid. i have no problem doing either and getting laid now. early on it's a lot of over correction.

never kissing isn't the most effective. full blow makeouts do kill tension. light kissing and pulling back increase it. also blaming her increases it. "i can't do this, why are you doing this to me?" and pull back. also if you're spending a lot of time together buying a drink will seem normal. but if a girl is like "buy me a drink" early i will either say "no" or "you get the first round i'll get the rest." there is a calibrated way of doing everything.

as for pimp the most valuable section is outter game > vibe > verbal structure. this is the one thing that isn't in flawless natural. but i find the two similar. for the verbal structure section he tells you how to use interview questions. i don't think using all five questions is important. i prefer to make statements. but when using interview style questions it's important to get down speaking in a way that challenges, commands, or adds to the fun.

here is sixtyyearsofchallenge anti-manifesto. this is not to be taken literally

Anti-Manifesto

You don't really need to do or say much of anything.

There is already tension between men and women. By definition that tension is sexual. It's always lurking just beneath the surface. If it was acceptable I believe people everywhere would be having care-free sex with multiple partners all the time. This tension is so dangerous it often leads to complete strangers having sex in less than 10 minutes. This tension is why some men feel the need to cover women head to toe in burkas. It's also why women know it's dangerous to put themselves in a situation where they are alone with you.

Do Less, Not More

Just by showing up, without doing anything, there is already sexual tension between you and women. It is natural and automatic.

That means:

1) There is really nothing "special" you need to do or say

2) Most women are already naturally attracted to you

Anti-Manifesto

It is my belief that it's not so much as you need to do or say "special" things to CREATE attraction as much as you just need to NOT do the small things that reduce the sexual tension that is already there. And eventually kill it forever.

- talking

- laughing

- reacting

- fidgeting

- bailing her out

- supplicating facial expressions

I consider this an anti-manifesto because most strategies usually focus on what you need to do or say. There is nothing to say. There is nothing to do.

Your whole life you have been doing things to lessen tension. You have always tried to make everybody else around you feel more comfortable at your own expense. You do this with your friends, your co-workers and especially the women you like. When things get tense or awkward you're the big clown making everyone laugh and feel comfortable. Even when girls reject you, you are more worried about their comfort level than your own. You don't want her to feel awkward. Aw!

This is bad because doing things to help women feel more comfortable with the sexual tension will be viewed by her as supplication. A woman is never going to be attracted to a man that can handle LESS sexual tension than she can.

In the end it always seems to come down to who wins the little tension battles:

Eye Contact: who is going to look away first

Introduction: who pulls their hand away first

Silence: who gives in and talks first

Resistance: who tries to diffuse the awkward moment first

Who breaks down and needs to have a talk about "what is going on" first

Lets look at a few subtle ways guys reduce the sexual tension in their interactions with women:

Opening & Silence

The reduction of tension starts right away. Most guys will use a social opener or make up an excuse to start the conversation. This may help you and her both feel comfortable, but is that really such a good idea?

Right from the beginning guys are scared of silences. In fact right after you introduce yourself you want to pause for a second and give her a chance to contribute. Instead what guys usually do is just assume it's their job to talk and entertain the whole time. It all comes off as they are trying to qualify themselves instead of the other way around. (The person talking is the person qualifying). When silence happens, as it always will, who feels the pressure to talk first.

Seductive Listening & Facial Expressions

Another way guys break sexual tension is by making supplicating facial expressions when listening. Instead of using this opportunity to bask in the natural tension of the moment guys get wide-eyed, flash goofy smiles and do lots of head nodding. And don't forget the nervous throw away lines like "oh my god that's so funny". Instead you want to keep relatively quiet and use more of a blank stare when listening. Similar to a poker players face. By listening intently but not giving her much feedback she will feel like she needs to qualify herself to you.

Escalation & Resistance

Anytime you get verbal or physical resistance there will be even more tension in the air. This is good news. Resistance is great! But if you react to the resistance verbally (ie. trying to diffuse the awkwardness by making a joke) you will kill that tension. The same thing happens if you look sad and become pouty. If you don't react to her resistance it never becomes real. It's not official. It's like it never happened. Being unreactive and keeping composed lets you be very persistent without coming across needy.

Tests/Asd

Many times it's not just you. When women become aroused they will try to reduce the tension by baiting you to break rapport. Of course you fall for this trap because you think you need to break rapport to create sexual tension. See the problem? The sexual tension is already there.

Even witty comebacks and reframes can reduce tension. As such, tests are best handled this way. Hold seductive eye contact, smile and turn your head away slowly. If her test is due to a legitimate sexual comfort issue then your response can be delivered in a sexual but serious tone.

ie.

~ We are not having sex tonight.

We're both adults. We will do whatever we are comfortable with.

Bailing Her Out

When you ask women to exchange numbers, meet up or come home with you, you should just ask her and then shut the fuck up. When women start stalling or making excuses guys always seem to bail them out by saying something. They crumble under the pressure.

Instead don't say anything and move slightly closer to her. Let the awkward moment linger. The pressure is on her. Let her feel bad for breaking rapport with you. If you can just keep your mouth shut long enough women will often come around on their own and agree to whatever you were asking for.

A good rule is to always choose the option that produces the most tension. For example if you want to set up a meet it's better to call girls vs. text them. When you text girls you let them off the hook and make it easy for them to say NO. Of course it's even better if you ask her out face to face. Anytime a woman thinks you are doing something because you fear tension (ie. using a bet as an excuse to ask her out) she is going to lose attraction for you.

Risk Creepy

As I have discussed before you want to embrace awkwardness and risk creepy. You want her breathing heavy and get her heart beating faster. That's because these symptoms mimic the signs of her being attracted. This tension is a good thing. You want it to be a bit awkward. You don't want things to feel too comfortable.

How Dare You!

Not breaking the tension can be even harder for new guys with less experience. You will be tested more. Women will look at you like how dare you be so confident. Plus, if you think of yourself as not traditionally "good looking" you will automatically think you need to DO STUFF to make women attracted to you.

Actually it's just the opposite. Guys need to do less. The things you are doing now might be getting reactions, but they are also reducing the tension. It's very subtle but when guys believe they don't have a shot with a woman, they say or do things to sabotage their chances. The funny thing is at the beginning the sexual tension and attraction was there. But because they didn't believe she was attracted, that tension made them feel awkward. So of course they were the ones to break it off first.

The key to assuming attraction is to remember that on some level there is already sexual tension between you and most women. This tension exists naturally. An automatic connection if you will. As such, your focus shouldn't be on what "special things" you need to say or do, but rather just on not breaking the natural tension and attraction that is already present.

Do less.

60
 

naturalmikey

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Jun 9, 2019
Messages
815
i'll add there is a lot of contradicting information out there. a lot of stuff that contradicts each other still works. game is about finding out what works for you. here is my list that i've found to be good:

rsd julien: pimp
alex social (formerly rsd alex) : social encrypted
rsd max: the natural
rsd tim: the flawless natural

the other rsd products aren't that great. todd's products are like an intro to more advanced stuff but if you want to get advanced there are four good products in my experience:

swinggcat: sexual connections and foundations for building attraction
gunwitch: seduction mma and his relationship product.

there is also some good free stuff like game by in10se and the attraction code by vin di carlo. here is swinggcats first ebook which is good https://pualib.com/pp.php?v=1699681138
 

rond

Rookie
Rookie
Joined
Sep 15, 2019
Messages
5
Thanks naturalmikey. That's very helpful.

What do you think of Chase's stuff? I know this is his forum, and I'm sure he has great skills, but I'm finding his book painfully tedious, pedantic and dogmatic.

With other things, I'm inclined not to take popularity into consideration and suspect value to lie in more abstruse sources, but game being social in nature, I'm leaning towards the younger guys having their fingers more on the societal pulse. There are so many pua writers from the mid-2000s who have fallen into obscurity and we never hear about them now, and I can't help but think they lost their relevance when compared with, say, Julien or Jeffey.

When I read Ross Jeffries suggest having flowers delivered anonomously from a secret admirer, and then show up to her work placewith a t- shirt you had made which says " your secret admirer", well, that might have worked in 1989, but with a 23 year old girl bombarded with Instagram attention, would make one an embarasment and a joke.

I think the same is true of most of the big names who have faded away, either because they lost popularity or moved on to teaching marketing rather than game.

Your thoughts?
 

ThePhoenix

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
305
rond,

To add some thoughts to tie things together...


Theory

Youʼre probably a little confused because different skilled guys disagree on many points. You know why that is? Because itʼs not actually that hard to get laid. As the slightly tasteless expression goes, “thereʼs more than one way to skin a cat.”

The “Anti-Manifesto” given by naturalmikey is pretty much on point. Most guys have an unconscious limiting belief that “women donʼt like sex and they especially donʼt want to have it with me.” Seduction is really all about turning that assumption on its head. There are some simple, fundamental things you need to internalize:

  • Women do like sex.

  • Most women will have some degree of natural sexual attraction to you as a man. (In fact, some may be very attracted to you by random genetic factors.)

  • Women are most attracted to promiscuous men who get sex quickly and easily. (This is due to evolution and the asymmetry of male vs. female reproductive capacity; in the wild, a polygamous male who gets lots of sex with multiple females would be more likely to give a female a much larger number of grandchildren than a monogamous one who has trouble even getting laid — the so‑called “Sexy Son Hypothesis”.)

These are things that were true in 1689 and will still be true in 2289. Society may change the ways in which it represses these facts, but it wonʼt change them.

If you live and breathe the above facts, you wonʼt need techniques and tactics. Your natural behaviour will be perfect. Unfortunately, most of us had society brainwash us out of those beliefs, so our challenge is to reprogram ourselves with those beliefs. The only real use of specific tactics and techniques is that of a sort of “fake it until you make it” strategy.

In truth, as the Anti-Manifesto points out, game is not about making a woman want to fuck you. Itʼs about not blowing the fact that she already does.

I get the feeling youʼre at risk of getting bogged down in theory. Well, some amount of theory is good, but nothing beats experience, so your main focus should be on meeting and trying to seduce lots of women. Donʼt stress out too much over exactly what to do, but do have a basic plan to progress to the bedroom quickly.

Another thing is, empirical data beats general claims. You would probably, to some degree, be better served by reading field reports than by reading tons of theory. Seeing what guys have done in real world cases and what the outcomes were, is probably more valuable than reading what some expert thinks you should do. This forum (and probably others) has a Field Reports section which Iʼd recommend browsing. Keep in mind, the reports prefixed “LR” represent successes and those prefixed “FR” ideally represent failures, since the ultimate test of whether something worked is whether dick ended up in pussy. But read the failures too, because thereʼs often much to be learned from failure.

Iʼd be inclined to trust relatively anonymous textual field reports over in‑field videos, since in the latter case the guy is to some extent trying to glamorize himself, so heʼs probably putting up cases where some uber‑impressive style that works 1% of the time actually worked.

And of course, do your own empirical testing, too!


Kissing

I want to be clear that I didnʼt mean it was a turn‑off. In fact, it can easily become the opposite problem. Ask yourself, would you put your hand down a girlʼs panties in a coffee shop? Thatʼs one of the reasons kissing can be a problem.

Basically, thereʼs a certain point where shit youʼre doing leads to physical arousal in the girl, and when that point is reached, you need to be able to seal the deal quickly before her rational mind takes over and goes into socially programmed, “wait a minute, this is leading to sex, I canʼt be easy, I need to slow this down” mode. If you read these boards enough you will see a pattern over and over and over, where the guy either went too far in a place where sex was not practical, or didnʼt try hard enough to make actual sex happen when a makeout was already initiated in a sex location, and then the girl gets testy and difficult the next day and often another meeting either never happens or the girl tries to boyfriend slot him. These “failed mating attempts” violate the Sexy Son Hypothesis and make you less attractive.

Another thing I personally donʼt like about it, is that itʼs stereotypically something boyfriends do. If you donʼt understand why thatʼs a problem, youʼve got some reading to do, lol.

Kissing isnʼt necessarily bad, but it has a lot of downsides that you need to be really well calibrated to avoid. IMO beginners donʼt have the degree of calibration required to avoid the downsides of kissing. Couple that with the fact that itʼs absolutely not necessary — and Iʼve had my dick inside a chick nearly half my age on the first date without buying her even a drink to prove it, at least to myself — and youʼll see why I donʼt recommend it especially to beginners.


HTH!
Phoenix
 
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