Help! Is she feeling outmatched->autorejection, or looking for investement?

tomascs

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Oct 4, 2018
Messages
14
Thank you for your time!

I met a beautiful girl at a bar, we talked got her number the next day.

Date 1) We met up for "sunset and wine" (her idea after I offered acai bowls at 2ish but she was busy until 5). We hit it off, had terrific deep dive conversations, passionate make out and then my escalation to sex failed and we began the first of several resistance-conversations. She didn't want to have sex and without knowing why she was against it I began to try to persuade her that the restrictions that society put on women for sex are lame. This didn't work. She asked me "have you ever had sex with someone on the first date and then dated them". I said no which is the truth, but I've never liked someone as much as her. She clearly had the upper hand in this exchange because ended with something along the lines of "we'll see a little more of each other each time." At this point she seems like she's a very expeienced and socially savvy woman who rebuffed my efforts with ease. However, she also says with a tone of suprise at one point in the night, "I think you're out of my league".

We see each other for shorter dates, again no sex due to logistics. I'm annoyed to admit that I've been thinking about her too much so I try to contact other girls and talk to people on the street but I know it's half-hearted.

Date 4) She come's to my place, less deep diving but she's still sharing a bunch about herself. We kiss passionately again. I try to escalate again and she denies again. "I feel dirty when I sleep with people without there being an emotional connection". At this point I probably should have deep dived really hard but didn't think about it at the time. She claims she "doesn't want a boyfriend and doesn't want a hookup". I accuse her of just not liking sex and she kind of laughs. I suggest she's looking for a "friend with benefits" and she seems to kind of like that idea but then says "now you know what my deal is it's up to you". She then leaves, (which takes 20 minutes because we kiss so much on the way out.

Current time: I sent her a text about an hour after she left thanking her for coming over and telling her it was fun.

My conundrum: I don't know if I should back off and give her some time to reach out to me and show more commitment which would be the proper response if she was playing hard to get
...or if I should try to arrange something with her tomorrow and show more warmth because she's afraid that I'm a fuckboi or something.

Thank you for any and all constructive criticism and feedback.
-T
 

Seppuku

Tribal Elder
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Hey man,

I am sorry to be the messenger of bad news, but this doesn't look too good.

Your initial escalation attempt failed for two possible reasons: (i) she wasn't comfortable enough, or (ii) she wasn't horny enough (probably a bit of both).
She didn't want to have sex and without knowing why she was against it I began to try to persuade her that the restrictions that society put on women for sex are lame
You will never be able to "logically" persuade a woman to sex, no matter how witty your argument. When you have to explicitly voice the topic of having sex, and get caught into the why, it's already over. There is only one good reason she would follow you at your home: because she is horny as fuck. There are ways to make her horny, usually building up sexual tension. Things like push / pull , cryptic body language, ramping up touch, bold confidence, etc... Also, you should not try to appeal to her "logical" side. Rather, aim for her deep "instinctive" side.

Date 4 was the second failed escalation attempt: she came to your place, later on left your place, and no sex happened. I suspect again it's lack of sexual tension. In any case, this is date 4, there is already one failed escalation attempt, plus two other dates with no attempt, so you would expect her to make it much more difficult for you. At this stage, she came to your home, expected you to try, and was already prepared for that.

View it as a game. She wants you to fuck her, but can't make it easy for you. You are supposed to overcome her (token) resistance and "swipe her on her feet" against her defenses. But each time you try and fail, or each time you fail to try, she will make it harder and harder. But if you can't overcome her defenses, after a little while she loses interests, she stops "viewing you in this way", and from now on you are smoothly sailing towards the "friend zone" waters. The best quote from Chase goes like this. Meditate it because it's gold:
Chase said:
courtship is just the mating dance, and a mating dance that is not followed by mating leads to the male dismissed as impotent.

And the window of opportunity is usually extremely short. The sweet spot for concluding the mating dance is date 1, or date 2 at most, no matter her telling you otherwise. Beyond that, the likelihood of sex ever happening drops close to zero very fast.

There is another big takeaway.
We hit it off, had terrific deep dive conversations, passionate make out
Making out with a woman doesn't mean anything. Counter intuitive, but so much true. I went on three first dates this year, with three women. I didn't make out with any of them (pre-sex). And I fucked all three of them nonetheless. You had so many terrific make outs with her, and here you are. Not only making out doesn't mean anything, but also it's counterproductive. Because now she knows she has you! Which is the exact opposite of sexual tension. She knows she has you, therefore she is in control and can make you dance as she pleases (which is precisely what happens here). It is the exact opposite of what you need (you're in control and you lead the mating dance). By kissing her, you are actually giving away your power to her!

All the bullshit she is throwing at you is just that, bullshit. It is part of barrier for you to overcome. She may even actually believe it. But the primordial instincts, deep inside, know better than that. Just ignore the unhelpful stuff!

"we'll see a little more of each other each time."
Bullshit. She is already hitting the break pedal.

"I feel dirty when I sleep with people without there being an emotional connection"
More and more bullshit. By date 4 there is as much emotional connection as there will ever be. Whatever she says, if she meets a guy that makes her really horny, she will fuck him on date 1, no matter the blabla.

Etc... Ignore all the bullshit, build sexual tension, and smoothly lead her to sex, date 1, or date 2.

SO back to your present situation. 4 dates, two failed escalations including one at your place. She already has established a strong "no sex before date 25" sort of frame. She has already logically argued for holding sex back with you. When the problems have been voiced out, they are usually much, much harder to overcome.

or if I should try to arrange something with her tomorrow and show more warmth because she's afraid that I'm a fuckboi or something
A fuck boy would have already fucked her by now. This is you, falling into her frame "no sex before date 25 because I'm a real lady, or else you may be a fuck boy". Wanting to fuck a girl you like is not being a fuck boy, it's a normal, healthy masculine desire. Be comfortable with it and own it, and don't let yourself caught into unhelpful frames.

In my opinion, the best thing you could do now is to put a huge step back, withdraw altogether, and watch her (or not) come back to you. You must aim to reverse the chasing frame, and get her to chase you. Pull back, go silent, and wait.

At the same time, do not keep too high hopes because your prospects are not looking too good. Too many bad precedents already. Sorry to say. I hope that at the minimum you can learn from this experience so as to improve next time.

Seppuku / Pierre
PS. Let me venture a guess. Is she over 30 years old?
 

tomascs

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Oct 4, 2018
Messages
14
Wow first off thank you so much for that goldmine of a response! In hindsight, and with your post as context I realize that I could have pushed past the resistance in the first date but didn’t. (I’m having issues with performance anxiety and at the point where I should have fully escalated I felt I was soft and worried it would have failed even if I had tried). I don’t view this as a failure but a learning experience and I appreciate the help! We’re both in college so your guess is a bit off, but that just means I have more time to improve :). Also may I ask what made you guess her age to be 30?

Also moving forward I’m going to view her as a lost cause so as to minimize my loss when things go badly, but on the off chance this is reperable I’d like to clarify what you mean by go silent. Should I not respond to text messages? Also school is bout to be out (we have a week of studying then our finals) then summer vacation. It seems like after ~3 months of summer vacation it would be too late to send another ping once we get back.. right? Alternatively I know she has a ton of attractive friends because she’s in the top sorority (tons of preselection for her there and she knows it) so should I intentionally friend zone her and go for the new social circle that could be created from this friendship?

Thanks so so much!
 

Seppuku

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
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Aug 25, 2014
Messages
1,149
Location
Middle East, Asia, Africa
tomascs said:
Also may I ask what made you guess her age to be 30?
Because in their 30s women tend to be more a pain in the ass with the "no sex before date X" and other similar "rules".

but on the off chance this is reperable I’d like to clarify what you mean by go silent. Should I not respond to text messages?
It means take a huge step back. Don't initiate texting. Let her initiate. And if she does, dont rush to respond. Let her chase! Let her invest! Let her ponder! Let her wait! The goal is to try reversing the chase frame, but not to completely cut off. So yeah, respond to her texts... sometimes! Enjoy being chased.

IF she sticks and put in some work to go out with you, then you set a date on YOUR terms. Don't make it easy for her. Make it easier for you.

Alternatively, and given the odds, yeah, you can friend zone her and use her for her social network. Not bad idea!

Thanks so so much!
Welcome.
 

tomascs

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Oct 4, 2018
Messages
14
Update: I waited about a week and after reading this article I thought it was relevant to my situation and debated which method to use. I ended up sending the following text to her:

Hi! Have you finished Monk yet? (this is a show I got her "addicted" to) Or perhaps deadweek is slowing that down... Anyway, last times closure was a little weird. I really dig u tho and figured you were in a funky mood or something. I assume u have plans for friday but I wanna stay friends so you should swing by our kickback for a bit to say hi/bye before summer starts (17th is last day of finals)

after about 3 hours she responded:

Hey! On season 6 so you can say things are going well hahah! Sorry about that, I just got the feeling we weren't on the same page as to what we wanted from each other but definitely like you and had a lot of fun! Would love to come to the kickback friday

As you can see, I sort of mixed options 2(Rejection Reframe) and 3(Preselection). I'd like to run by my thought process here to see if anyone sees any flaws in my reasoning or suggestions to rethink my approach in the future.

Option 1(Hang Back) coincided with what Seppuku said earlier, but the reason I decided to initiate today at noon is because summer is coming up, which will mean a really long break at the end of which we won't even remember each other and she probably wouldn't answer a text. Thus I felt preassured for time and decided to test the other two in a way that would at least build friendship through which to meet her friends. I then moved on to a combination of 2 and 3 which I'm not sure was advisable but seemed like a good idea at the time. In Chase's article it says if she's pretty certain about her reason for dismissal then you won't be able to reframe her which is what happened in my case. She did accept the party invite which is good but I'm sure she's really trying to nail down the platonic frame. Now this is where the other girl comes in. M is someone that I hooked up with a while ago and is VERY PDA. My plan is to nail my fundamentals, be sociable but not plan on doing anything with the original girl. If the original girl escalates I'll reciprocate but I won't instigate. Additionally I'm upgrading my phone on Monday so I'm considering not responding to her until then and saying: "I got a new phone! But sounds good, bring friends!"

Thanks so much for the help up till here I really appreciate it. I'm excited for more constructive criticism!
 
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