Direct vs Indirect: Which is best for day approach?

MickDavies

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Hey, I’m sure this has been asked loads of times already but I wasn’t able to find it anywhere. For context, I am able to meet girls online who I am attracted to & the dates generally go pretty well. I also dance & am able to flirt with girls I meet there although I struggle turning the attraction into dates etc. I feel like my biggest issue by far at the moment is my inner game (related to feelings of being unattractive). I am just starting out with cold approach.

I have read some articles on here that recommend direct approach over indirect, however I find that in day game situations I can get some very hostile responses to direct approach. Interestingly it seems that in a short period of time I can say almost exactly the same things to girls & get a friendly response each time when I go in indirect. I appreciate that a lot of what I am missing out on may be calibration; the short period of interaction gives me time to read the girl, with more experience I may be able to do this much faster and change how I convey attraction based on context. However I also feel like that short period of indirect gives her a chance to warm up and shift away from thinking about WhatsApp or whatever else happens to be on her mind.

I want to get the absolute most I can from my practice and so am looking for advice. Personally I feel like if I persist with direct approach I will be predominantly learning how to deal with aggressive responses, however I’m concerned that if I rely too much on indirect I will be learning to hide my attraction.
 

MickDavies

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Based on a bit of browsing around it looks it might be related to my being based in London. I guess what with the British aversion to compliments, going right into a direct opener could lead to an instant auto rejection.
 

Richard

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Women are women are women are women; all women take compliments the same way provided the correct man is saying it or giving it.

Direct is best because it screens women out pretty fast so you're not wasting your time. If you go indirect, you may talk to a girl for 15-20 minutes before finding out she isn't actually available to you and that's time wasted. That aside, going direct also let's women know what kind of man you are pretty fast and as the relationship between you and the girl blossoms her behaviors are partially shaped because she KNOWS you can go out and approach more women IF she fucks up.

Indirect, though, is a lot easier and less stressful for beginners or intermediate guys to try out because it gets you used to talking to women and interacting with people. I definitely started out by going indirect to get some experience but once I was comfortable with direct I stuck to it. Absolutely nothing in the world yields better results than direct approaching =)

-Richard
 

MickDavies

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Richard said:
Absolutely nothing in the world yields better results than direct approaching =)

Thanks Richard. So it sounds like you are recommending taking the dealing with her open hostility/verbally attacking me route. Do you have any recommendations/strategies for dealing with this?
 

Richard

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Mick,

Firstly, I'd like to ask you to give me an example of what your "direct" approach entails. If a woman is acting hostile/aggressive after being given a compliment then it's because of how YOU are delivering it or saying it. Women react/respond to how men act and your approach is the first behavior she gets to see about you which is why it's so important.

On top of that, I'm pretty confident in direct daygame working in London (specifically) because I have quite a few friends who run game in London; the guy I'm thinking of specifically is now hitched but he was running a lot of game between Westminster and Walworth.

The other thing I should mention is that your calibration has to be much higher when you run direct daygame, as well, because it's so revealing. As I said, indirect game is inherently easier because of this so women can stand around and talk for a few minutes because your intentions aren't yet clear but direct daygame makes your intentions clear immediately.

As for dealing with women who act like bitches - it's usually a screening tool they have to weed out weaker men. Acting like a bitch is a great way to get guys to leave them alone but underneath that "shield" those women are pretty fucking awesome. Alek wrote up a great article on breaking through bitch-shields.

-Richard
 

MickDavies

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A more extreme example would be a girl I approached in Regent’s Park recently. I walked up to her and said that I wanted to come and say hi because I saw her and I think she is really pretty. She glared and hissed at me as though she was trying to pack as much venom in that sound as she could possibly muster. Reminded me of a rattlesnake protecting her young (I remember reading somewhere that rattlesnakes can be silly and cute too).

I’m trying to think who your friend could be. Most of the more prominent guys over here use either indirect or a form of hyper indirect-direct. I would be interested in seeing someone make a hyper direct approach in London. Obviously exact location does make a huge difference especially somewhere like London. Most of the people wandering around that area tend to be non-British tourists, so that would help.

I agree that the initial approach is very important which is why I’m asking for help/advice. Thanks for the link, I gave it a read, however it seems like it is very much skewed towards bar/club game. A lot of the recommended options such as ejecting and reentering are much less available in most day game situations.
 

Cacc

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I agree that the initial approach is very important which is why I’m asking for help/advice.

You already got advice by a respected member. If you're still not satisfied then you were looking for a specific answer not advice.
 

dcman

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I was in central London for a week. saying Hi followed by a comment or a open ended question was most effective. Based on the reaction I received , I could decide to either build up the conversation or move on. The good thing is I could stand on any corner of high street and come across so many HB's making it easy to find a nicer girl rather than working on a girl with a bitchy attitude. I feel central London is fast paced and too packed to recover with a direct approach that was not well received. I would suggest try out different approaches and see what suits you best as the foot traffic in Central London makes it easier to experiment with different approaches.
 

MickDavies

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dcman said:
saying Hi followed by a comment or a open ended question was most effective. Based on the reaction I received , I could decide to either build up the conversation or move on.

I’ve been experimenting with this too & haven’t had a single bad reaction. I can then get much more direct & don’t get the hostility. The thing is I would rather do direct for the reasons that Richard mentioned, I just need to know how to deal with the issue I’m having with it. I see three possibilities, either
1) I’m getting something wrong, in which case I’d like to know what so I can fix it. I gave Richard the example he asked for of what I’m doing. Maybe there is something in there that I can tweak.
2) The responses I’m getting aren’t actually a problem, in which case I just need a way to deal with them. Alek’s article suggests that there may be ways to push past this shield & get to a much better interaction, I’d like to understand whether this translates to day game & if so how, most of the advice he gives is bar/club game specific.
3) For some other reason direct just isn’t working in my context. I’d still like to know what that reason is though & if anything can be done to get around it. On the other hand if it’s a choice between going direct & just getting a ton of hostility & nothing else or going indirect & at least getting in some conversation & flirtation I’d actually prefer indirect.
 

MickDavies

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I went out again to do some more direct approaches (yesterday I was focused on building conversation skills with warmer approaches). The responses I got today were much friendlier. I still can’t account for the brattiness of the other girls but I guess it’s worth going through it for the smiles I put on the faces of the girls who can handle a compliment.
 

Richard

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I cannot, for the life of me, find the article I want to link you to - it covers what I talked about in a lot more depth. Like I said, a lot of women put up these "bitch shields" because it's a useful way to repel weak-minded guys who aren't worth dating/fucking/etc. There isn't a single woman on the planet who feels offended enough to act stand-offish (like the girls you're describing) by being given a genuine compliment because it's not how women operate.

There isn't a girl alive who hates hearing "I think you're attractive" UNLESS it's delivered improperly which is why I said calibration in direct daygame is much higher than indirect daygame.

That aside, my strategy for dealing with women who aren't super receptive right away and act kind of bitchy or arrogant is to 1) not react with negative emotion and 2) continue to engage them in a fun way. I'm very playful and goofy so women hardly ever have shields up when I talk to them so I haven't run across this issue in a long time but I used to just follow through with genuine emotion. My goal is to have fun and make experiences warm and memorable with women so I don't react by being an asshole or insulting a girl if she rejects my initial approach - I stay calm and try to keep having fun to see if she cracks a little bit and if she doesn't I let her walk away while maintaining a smile and good energy.

Check This Out.

-Richard
 

MickDavies

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Thanks Richard. I guess I'll need to just do lots then until I figure out what I'm doing 'improperly' with the girls who are responding bratilly compared to the ones who receive it well.
 

Richard

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MD,

Post some field reports or keep a journal on the boards of your interactions; well very likely be able to help pinpoint problems if you can give us enough data to work with:)

-Richard
 

ray_zorse

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Apart from Richard and cacc's good advice I would also suggest to focus on fundamentals, this would probably be especially important in central London. At a minimum you need some decent trousers, a shirt, expensive or expensive looking shoes, some jewellery (a necklace in say 8mm titanium chain with the shirt open a bit, maybe some rings or whatever works for you), a decent haircut with some gel or wax in it, decent teeth (whiten them if you need or consider having dental work done), neatly trimmed facial hair, deodorant, a good cologne (some people on these boards go for the natural pheromone and reduced soap approach although it does not work for me), a jacket of some sort, general coordination/fashion sense/an idea of your own individual style... all these things can be sorted out relatively quickly given enough $$ although it may take a few clothes shopping trips to find your style, some of the things I bought after starting GC were horrid but many others served me well for years.

So now as to things that take longer to achieve the most important are your walk (large steps and a slight swing of the hips/body but nothing girly), posture (standing tall, shoulders back, leaning back slightly from the interaction), eye contact (do not scan, appear very focused in whatever you are doing, then during/after the approach a very strong focus on her, always breaking eye contact to the side not down, etc)... Voice, nice and deep, good breathing from the diaphragm not the chest, speaking slowly and directly... Your body shape, need diet and gym over a decent period to achieve this... And more. Even small things like pointing your feet straight ahead, the natural stance has an unattractive Charlie-Chaplin splayed-feet look, so consciously turn your feet inwards.

There are ample resources here, in articles, Chase's ebooks etc, to develop fundamentals, above is just a taste and a selection of what I have personally found to be important and effective. I will say that reading some of Richard's LRs there are references to basketball shorts and this is an example of why your fashion has to be tailored to age, personality and environment. For instance the homie look might be very effective in pulling girls in downtown LA but less so in central London, though I don't know for sure since I haven't tried it. I go for a more distinguished look which is appropriate to my age, 37 when I started GC, 42 now. Your mileage will vary.

I definitely feel that if direct is getting poor results it is a fundamentals issue (this includes the wording and delivery of the compliment as well as your physical attributes). I do NOT agree that London women are different. I don't have specific experience with London women although I can say that Australian women tend to have high bitch-shields so I wouldn't be surprised if the same applied to English women. On the other hand I was told that by numerous sources that cold approach and especially direct approach would not work in Japan due to the peculiarities of their personalities and culture, and this turned out to be total bullshit in practice. Women are women are women. If cold approach and going direct works in the expensive shopping districts of Tokyo and Osaka (which it does) then I know it will in London also.

cheers, Nick
 

MickDavies

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Thanks Nick, my vibe is a little different to what you describe although I think I still cover most of the bases. I am professionally trained both as a stage actor and hypnotist, if I go fully into that mode in a 1 to 1 setting girls usually can't stop giggling & I've been told at times that I am too intense so I try to contrast with the rest of my style. I usually go with some cool, unique jeans & a t-shirt that I've picked up from my travels, sometimes with a suit jacket depending on the weather. Physically I'm endomorphic. I've always been relatively active & am currently around the area considered 'peak' muscularity for attractiveness but am carrying too much fat (not obese but overweight), I'm working on that, I have had a girl verbally reject me over my weight so it is a problem although I ended up fucking her anyway which was fun :) I have wavy hair & have managed to find a great stylist who specialises in that so it usually manages to look cool & different without me having to do much. My teeth are OK, not blindingly white but not discoloured & no dental work that needs doing. This tends to be much less of a concern in the UK anyway. I've had lots of compliments over my style including people who've stopped me in the street to compliment me, so I'm not too concerned about that.

Things like the walk are almost impossible to perfect without dedicating large parts of your life to it or giving it your full concentration. It is usually said that it takes 10 years to learn to Tango & the walk is one of the hardest things to perfect. I have seen guys who have been dancing for many years start making posture mistakes when they are dancing with a particularly hot girl. That said it is something I regularly pay attention to.

Would you say the fixed gaze/determined walk thing are contextual? Obviously it is preferable to look like you're not 'on the hunt' & so it would probably always make sense in the street but there are many day time activities that encourage looking around. On the opposite end of the spectrum would be something like a concert or football match but markets, museums, parks & galleries also promote looking around.
 

ray_zorse

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Hmm well it does sound like you have the basics covered more or less, so I might have been preaching to the choir in regards to fundamentals, although perhaps there is still work to do in regards to the difficult ones like the walk, the posture and the eye contact. I think it pays to always be practicing these things. I have gone backwards in recent times (weight-wise as well), but I do believe in my heart that perfect control of posture, eye contact and other things is possible with practice. Since you're an actor you must know the value of repeating things over and over until they stick.

So the next thing to look at is how you're carrying out the approach itself, it's a bit hard to explain, but say you are coming towards her and you put a hand up as if to stop her, and you say "hey, stop for a moment" then you need to be kind of casual and smiley, if you are too intense it might come across as rather intimidating. And so you smile at her and she is intrigued and you say "I could not help but notice your .... and I wanted to compliment you.... my name is Mick" and then you get her name and then you make a guess as to what she is doing, if she is dressed up she may be going to an event so you ask her "you are heading to an event right now?" or perhaps you say "is today a special day in the office, you have important meetings?" or whatever you think it is. That way, she can start telling you about her day if she wants to, or else she can correct you and you might tease her a bit about being overdressed for whatever the occasion is, etc. But the whole point is to keep it fun, and this is difficult if you're in your head. So you need to be in a very extroverted mode. This will happen (even if you're naturally introverted) through good warm-up.

Warm-up is quite important if you are going direct. Consider the scenario like you've just come from work to the bar with your buddies and you've been involved in some tricky technical matter all day or you're wrapped up in thinking about some complicated contract negotiation... someone you vaguely know comes into your vision and tries to introduce you to a friend of theirs and you'll be like "oh, huh yeah hi" and shake hands and then stand there like a dead fish wondering what you are supposed to say... contract with 3 hours later when you've drunk your way through happy hour and met loads of new people and been cracking jokes with your work buddies and teasing each other and so on... then someone you vaguely know introduces you to their friend and you're hugging them like an old buddy and including them into the group and making funny jokes about them as well... completely different vibe and it's solely due to social warm-up.

Chase writes a fair bit about warm-up in his e-books and it's worth a read, but in a nutshell you might treat the first few approaches as practice and simply try to get into more of a conversational mode, the trouble is though, that you can very quickly "warm down" and get back in your head again. Guys have often felt a bit of approach anxiety creeping in and concluded the night is over and gone home, when all they needed to do was persist through it and get warmed up back into a social mode again. One thing I can add from personal experience is, although you might feel like some indirect approaching will help you warm up before you do the actual direct approaching, it doesn't really for me. A better way in my opinion is compliment-eject since you're placing less of an expectation on yourself, but you're still putting yourself out there and putting your ego on the line. Once you do this a few times in the day it doesn't seem such an issue the rest of the day.

Anyway, nearly all of my approaching has always been either by going direct or by cracking some sort of a joke like a playful demand, you see her eating a slice of pizza and say "hey! where's mine!!" before breaking down into laughs and saying "well actually I do have an apple... so I guess between us we have a complete meal?" or something silly like that. Situational can be OK if there is actually a situation to comment on, but I wouldn't rely on this. I reckon that going direct is where it's at, and I have very little patience for slow movers who conceal their attraction first off!

cheers, Nick/Ray
 

MickDavies

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Thanks Nick. At the moment I seem to be doing a lot of inner game stuff. Going from seeing myself as the intriguing, unknown white knight to the slightly asshole guy who seduces, dates & ultimately fucks attractive women. Tonight I have 2 dates stacked which I have never done before because I want to see how it will go down. I can see how the approach/eject would help with that too: seeing myself as the guy who direct approaches women rather than just sneakily checking them out or talking to them but hiding my intentions. It also gets me acclimatised to the range of red/yelllow/green approaches I can get.

I do find, though, that unlike with indirect, direct approach/eject gets me a lot more stuck in my head. After I have opened I'm usually either trying to process her bitchy response or feeling relief that she had a more neutral/positive response & not wanting to push my luck. I feel a lot more social (warmed up) after I've indirect opened a couple of times & got into brief conversations with girls I like.
 

MickDavies

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I've just read Chase's article 'why cold approach works better than anything else'.

I actually did my own web search to see what female opinions are around on this. You see the article from the woman who is completely disgusted that men cold approach her & the one who is equally disgusted that guys never approach. What his article has opened my eyes to is that in both cases this is actually the same woman, who in the first place has just been approached by a guy with unbelievably poor fundamentals & in the second was not approached by the guy she was 'making eyes at' all night (in a way subtle enough not to be obvious, which for most guys who haven't done a huge number of approaches translates as utterly imperceptible).

Assuming most guys are somewhere between being the guy who is completely unattractive to all women & the guy who women are entirely sexual open to at all times (neither of whom actually exist), they will regularly be in one or both of these camps depending on how often they approach. The advantage of taking the second path of non approach is you can allow yourself to be completely ignorant of the opinions of these women, the disadvantage is that you never get pussy. Generally a guy's decision tends to be predicated not on whether they are willing for some women to believe he is a disgusting asshole, which will happen either way, but how willing they are to handle her opinion.
 

dcman

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I think that you may be over analyzing a girl’s reaction to your approach. When it comes to mate selection girls do not think in a logical manner but go with emotions. Once you have made enough approaches you would get better idea to see which girls would respond positively to your approaches. But even then you will still come across bitchy girls. In the short time I was in London I found using Neg’s(mystery idea) or calling them out on their bitchiness in a GM style manner were effective to deal with girls that were bitchy. It is the reason I do not use a direct approach. With a direct approach it is hard to recover as I have conveyed my intentions to a girl and more or less need to go with how she reacts. London has abundance of HB’s so try out different methods to see what would be effective to your style and have fun doing it.
 
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