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Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:23 pm
by ElderPrice
ThePhoenix wrote:Iʼm thinking you have a limiting belief, in which you equate dominance with popularity, attention, and/or physical toughness — which is a bad conceptualization for someone who is not naturally extroverted.

Maybe POTUS wasnʼt the best example, but another might be a mafia boss. Well, he does get attention too, but Iʼm more interested in his behaviour, not his popularity or the attention heʼs getting. Think about how he acts. He can just speak one word and youʼre dead. Do you think he raises his voice and acts rowdy? He doesnʼt need to. The loud drunk is the way he is because he has nothing else. In a way, heʼs insecure; not like the mafia boss at all.

Dominance means you get your way.

A practical example of dominance would be when Seppuku gets up on a date and simply tells the girl theyʼre going to go listen to some music. Here he is not even asking her, he is simply directing her to do as he pleases. She is, of course, free to refuse, but his behaviour simply assumes that she wonʼt, because he is so used to getting his way with women. That is dominance.

Phoenix

Thank you again for your thoughts! Regarding day game, yes, I'm continuing to look for better venues. There's a big mall in the middle of town I haven't gamed at yet. It's next on the list. Perhaps next weekend.

Regarding the conversation on dominance, I know what you mean. You can be cool, collected, and dominant. I'm just not understanding how that applies to a social situation. Like, what am I supposed to do based on that concept? The mafia boss ALSO has a lot of social proof. He has a whole entourage with him. He has people to give the "kill that guy" command to. What would an aspiring seducer of women who goes out alone do with this? If I chill by myself, it doesn't matter how cool or chill I look... nobody approaches or gives approach invitations. I'm actually sort of convinced I have a natural vibe that for some reason repels people rather than attracts them. Meanwhile, the guys that command attention are loud and are seeking the spotlight, rather than playing it cool. And if the idea is YOU have to do the approaching and NOT sit and chill to the side and do nothing, the louder/tougher guy is going to command attention. And if you're not loud/tough, you're not. At least this is where I'm not understand how your point relates to what me or someone in my position is supposed to do. Does that make sense?

Thanks again!

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:54 pm
by ElderPrice
4/5/19 Possible Epiphany.

In my efforts to try and figure out what's messed up with my vibe, I've of course been reading articles and watching videos on the subject. In a couple RSD videos, they touch on a subject that I hadn't consciously noticed, but makes sense when I think about it. I'm sure a similar idea is mentioned here on GC. That idea is the one of giving vs. taking. The RSD videos speak of it as coping vs thriving.

The gist of it is, generally speaking, when you're not doing well, it's because you're taking. In a social context that would mean showing up to a social event and working to only consciously fulfill your needs or desires. Not necessarily in a rude or offensive way. In a way like, you go to a party to meet your friend's friends, as opposed to you bringing your own friends for your friend to meet.

When you are doing well, it's because you're giving. You socialize with the conscious goal to 'give' some sort of value to others. Something like making introductions, showing someone a good time, or just doing whatever to increase the energy of the event.

I hadn't really thought of all this in this paradigm before. When doing so, it seems to make sense. When I'm going out to meet new people or to meet girls, it's because I'm trying to add to my life. When I go out and get bored, it's because nothing is particularly happening to fulfill my desires (to meet people or meet girls). I don't think I can recall the last time I did something socially with the goal to help someone ELSE.

With this new understanding, I'm excited to try going to a venue and trying to GIVE to everyone there rather than take. The only holdup is I'm having a hard time understanding how to do this socially! How exactly do you add to the energy? How do you make someone else's night? How do you approach new people with the goal of making new friends or with picking up girls... while trying to GIVE them something to add value to THEIR lives? Like, specifically, what would one do? Especially as a quiet introvert that doesn't drink? Interesting stuff to think about!

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:11 am
by ThePhoenix
ElderPrice wrote:The mafia boss ALSO has a lot of social proof. He has a whole entourage with him. He has people to give the “kill that guy” command to.

The key here is inference. Although itʼs not quite as powerful as actually seeing it in action, women do make inferences based on your own behaviour. For instance, last year I hit on a girl in day game who I didnʼt even recall I had hit on before, and my memory lapse created a very powerful inference in her that I must get lots of girls. Suddenly she got a lot more friendly! (More detail is here.) She doesnʼt need to actually see the thugs at your command in order to unconsciously expect them to exist. If your own behaviour is totally congruent with the fact that you get your way, sheʼll tend to think you do.

ElderPrice wrote:And if the idea is YOU have to do the approaching and NOT sit and chill to the side and do nothing, the louder/tougher guy is going to command attention.

This is again where day game (or even on‑line) is an advantage, because in those venues, there generally are no loud, tough guys you have to compete with. The brain is very temporally local in emotional assessments. (I know this the hard way based on how hard it is to drive myself to approach the only black girl in a store even though I know thereʼs many tens of thousands of them in the city.) So, if there are none of those loud guys around at the moment, you can get her attention easily. With that said, you will probably need to just make an approach blindly, since nobody is on her radar and girls donʼt usually approach, anyway.

Also, this ties into the “Law of Least Effort”. (See this and this.) If you make it seem like you went to almost no effort to approach the girl, you retain the cool, collected mafia boss vibe even though you had to do the approach. Thatʼs why I like approaching in stores, because I can just act like Iʼm browsing around, then when I work my way to the girl or she happens to come close, I just grab something off the shelf and tap her with it or do whatever Iʼm going to do, and it seems to her like I literally just happened to be standing there and then noticed her. Actually, your stopping girls that happened to come near the spot you were standing in, was a good tactic from that perspective.

ElderPrice wrote:... That idea is the one of giving vs. taking. The RSD videos speak of it as coping vs thriving.

... When Iʼm going out to meet new people or to meet girls, itʼs because Iʼm trying to add to my life. ...

... How do you approach new people with the goal of making new friends or with picking up girls... while trying to GIVE them something to add value to THEIR lives?

Itʼs a good observation, but it also reveals that on some level you have a belief that seducing a woman is taking from her. Consciously, I know better, but Iʼm still working to fix this unconsciously, too. Somehow I still think that way even though Iʼve seen on several isolated occasions how much a woman can want my dick. With more successes I will fix this. The reality is that women love being swept off their feet and they love being taken sexually by men who know how to do it. So really, youʼre giving every bit as much as youʼre taking. You just need to weaken the vicious cycle of unconsciously believing (because society has brainwashed us to believe) that your advances are unwanted, which becomes a self‑fulfilling prophecy.

Phoenix

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:28 pm
by ElderPrice
Thank you again Phoenix! Agreed on all your points.

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:52 pm
by ElderPrice
4/7/19 So far so good with this new paradigm. It helped me go outside my comfort zone and do some LEGIT cold approaching.

The last two nights were, socially speaking, great nights. I had a lot of fun and despite nothing happening on the girl front, unlike other nights afterward I was not depressed. I felt like I had a good time. I credit this to the new paradigm I stumbled on this week - the idea of taking vs. giving.

On both of these nights, I gave myself only one thing or cue to focus on: make everything I do about GIVING others a great night. Dance with others so they can have a great dance that night... converse with others so they can partake in a fun conversation that night... etc etc.

I didn't just want to limit the testing of this paradigm to the same old same old partner dancing I always do. I'm not a terrible dancer so I figure the odds are good I always generally GIVE girls a good dance and add value to their nights. So testing this paradigm with partner dancing wasn't going to work. I'd have to try something different.

Normally I'll hit up multiple venues on a weekend night just so I can keep partner dancing. For instance, one will offer dancing earlier in the night before switching to "club mode," while another might offer partner dancing all the way until closing time. I've always left the first one to go to the second later. This time I was motivated and energized to stick with the first venue, stick around until after it went into "club mode," abandon the dance floor entirely, and try some old fashioned, LEGIT cold approach.

Once club mode began, I left the dance floor and just started walking around, back and forth throughout the packed venue, drinking nothing but cold water. I was doing this alone. The few friends that turned out for partner dancing had left, and I didn't bump into anyone in the venue that I knew. I was as alone as it gets, and enjoyed every minute of it! As expected, it took a bit to push through the initial AA and get started, but once the first open is made, the rest start coming easy. I was warming up. I basically tried opening as many receptive or easy looking opportunities as I could spot.

I smiled at everyone I walked past, in case anyone smiled back and looked open to a conversation. I mostly tried direct compliments as ice breakers. I pointed at one guy as our paths crossed and said "That's a great beard!" He smiled, said thanks and kept walking. I said to another guy "That's a great jacket! Looking sharp!" He didn't hear me and kept walking. I walked past a group and said to a girl in the middle "Do I know you? Have we ever danced before?" A part of me legitimately thought this, though I was 95% sure I haven't met her before. She smiled and said no awkwardly. I smiled, shrugged my shoulders and walked away. This one was a side experiment to see if when I walked past her again going the other way she'd stop me and start an interaction (didn't happen). One girl I could have sworn made eye contact or checked me out from a distance. I eventually made my way over there and started a conversation. I smiled and said playfully "Hey did we make eye contact earlier? It was a girl in a blue dress. Was it you or someone else?" We had a short conversation. She was happy to converse, but wasn't hooked and quickly dropped the boyfriend line. I eventually wished her a great rest of her night and bounced. Another girl and I were walking past each other. I pointed, smiled, and said "THAT's an awesome dress!" She said thanks and kept walking. At one point I stopped for a second to look around and see if I recognized anyone. A guy standing next to me bumped into my shoe, apologized, and we started a pleasant conversation about the venue and our shoe choices that evening. We then moved on.

I did this for about a half hour then called it a night. No hooks, no bites. I also wanted to end on a positive note. I felt good after stepping outside my comfort zone and doing these opens. Maybe I did 10 or so total? If I tried another 20 and whiffed on them all, then I might have risked going home depressed. So I'll take my small victory now, and when I go out again to try this exercise again, I'll make sure to do more approaches. Looking forward to it!

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:17 pm
by ElderPrice
4/13/19 No progress with girls, but making progress with myself.

Last night I took a break from the usual partner dancing and tried something new: I hit the clubs. My motivation was simple. I've been feeling good lately after doing a better job of forcing myself to do some LEGIT cold approaching. Going to a dance night and asking girls to dance doesn't really count. I've also been feeling good about the new mental paradigm I recently came across: the idea of giving vs. taking. While going about life holding the giving mindset, I've just felt better. Better mood, and much less butthurt and depressive thoughts when things don't go well. So due to these factors I thought: Fuck this, let's go for some volume, do some legit cold approaching, and see what happens - not just see what happens in terms of results with girls, but how I feel afterward (assuming I bomb again).

The sign that I am for sure making personal progress is this: Until last night I hated clubs. They were my least favorite thing ever. I don't like that music in terms of taste, I don't like the loudness of the music, I don't like the alcohol component, and I don't like everyone's on-guard personalities. It's just never, ever been fun. But I'm happy to say that last night I checked out several clubs and I had a pretty good time. This is a big deal for me. I'm actually surprised to be typing it! I would have never thought that I'd ever have a good time at a club but it finally happened!

So what did actually happen? Actually, basically nothing haha. It was that mindset that did the trick for me. The mindset of solely trying to provide OTHERS with a good time rather than trying to 'take' a good time for myself. Of all the people I talked to, none of them looked like they regretted meeting me. Most smiled and appreciated the conversation. And with each open that didn't hook, I was able to keep my motivation and move on to the next one.

In terms of girls (since that's what this is ultimately about), I got nothing. I wasn't counting my approaches, but it had to have been around 20 give or take. They just didn't hook. Well, to be more specific, the ones that hooked were the unattractive ones, like the fat girls of the group. Any girl that was remotely attractive didn't come close to hooking. Oh well.

Before if I had a night like this where I bombed so hard and got absolutely nothing from any girl the least bit attractive, I would have been VERY depressed for the next 2-3 days. I do feel sliiiiiightly down but nowhere near like before. Nowhere near where I feel unable to make use of the rest of the weekend and have a good time. So from here I'll figure out what I want to do the rest of the weekend and keep at it. I'd like to incorporate day game and again try something tonight that isn't dancing. Though to be honest, dancing sounds like fun after bombing so hard :)

Hooray on the growth!

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:54 pm
by Sub-Zero
Good job man!!

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:32 pm
by ElderPrice
Thanks man!

4/14/19 Another club outing. Useful experience. My luck seems to be running on fumes haha.

I couldn't find a more appealing option, so I went to the same venue I usually go to on Saturdays. I got there early to do the partner dancing, but then I stuck around til late after it had turned into club mode. This is only the second time I've stuck around for club mode.

I did this last weekend. Again I stayed away from the club dance floor and just walked around by myself opening as many people (ideally girls) as I could find. Again I didn't count my total opens. Maybe 20-30? Guys included.

I got 3 hooks from girls, but like Friday night, luck just wasn't on my side. One of the hooks was a girl I was not attracted to at all, one was from out of town and leaving the next day, and one was engaged.

Two interesting things that happened last night:

First, for the first time I was able to create a group from scratch. I was standing by myself on a side of the establishment. I then opened three people standing next to me. Two women and a guy. I actually opened the very pretty milf first by commenting about her unique glasses. She never hooked and wasn't interested, but her group liked talking to me and the fact that I struck up a conversation with them. So now we're standing there as a group of 4. I then spot a couple that I opened maybe 20 minutes prior just standing around and people watching. I invite them to join the group and make introductions. Now we have a circle of 6 people. We kept talking for 5 or so minutes, but then the conversation died down and people started leaving the circle. Point of the story: I created a group from scratch and kept it alive for 5 minutes. That was pretty cool. Haha.

The other interesting thing that happened was this engaged girl. I was standing in this same area and noticed possibly the sexiest girl I'd seen all night just dancing to herself. She had been drinking but wasn't totally drunk. She was with a girl friend and a guy. I make some eye contact. I notice the guy is being a little more hands on with the other girl, so I figure this girl is single. Then they take a break from dancing club style. They look at their phones (looked like YouTube), then start attempting country two step, as if they just watched a tutorial. Perfect ice breaker. So I approach, asking if that's what they're trying, and I offer to help since I know how to do that. They were just messing around and the topic drops. The guy and girl go somewhere so I start talking to my target.

She quickly hooks and the fun interaction begins. Some flirting, some sexual conversation topics, playful conversation, talking closely, some initial touching... all there. Then comes the bad luck. She says she's visiting from North Dakota and is engaged. Wonderful. But the hook still holds and the conversation changes. She wants to help me meet a girl that night. She wants to be my wing. First, she offers some interesting analysis of, well, me. She says I'm a 6 but because I displayed enormous balls to approach her cold, that bumped me to an 8. She roasted my clothes, mainly my shirt. This was disappointing because I was wearing all new clothes that I recently bought to try and step up my usual attire hahaha. But she was right about the shirt. The shirt was the least sexy of all the new shirts I bought. But I was wearing it because of all the new shirts, it has the best, softest fabric and moves the easiest for dancing. So I knew the shirt wasn't great. She suggested I unbutton one more button, but I objected, saying I have acne and scars on my chest and that it's my one insecurity. She understood. She then wrapped her arm around my shoulders and we started walking around the venue. She would stop at certain points to let me look for girls and point out any that I liked.

Eventually we come across the other girl I mentioned. The wing girl points her out and offers advice: She's standing in the middle of her group of girls and isn't being touchy at all with the guy next to her. She's single and available. Wait for two instances of eye contact, then approach. Use a cheesy pickup line. I did everything but the cheesy pickup line haha. She actually looked familiar so my opener was asking if she was a girl named Clair that I had met at the same venue a month ago. Nope. Different girl. So the conversation began. She was hooked, but ever so slightly. The conversation went on and that's when she revealed she's a student, about to leave for the night because she has to get up at the crack of dawn the next day to begin her drive back to Minneapolis now that the semester is over. Wonderful.

So an interesting night with interesting experiences. I'm not sure if I'll have time today to day game. Maybe next weekend I'll not go out Saturday so I can get up early on Sunday to make sure I have time to day game. We will see!

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:44 pm
by ElderPrice
4/21/19 Good progress. New experience. Could have gotten laid, but very rough logistics.

Same club as last Saturday. Going into the night, my only goal was to try and push the envelope as far as new experiences go. Actually if I had a specific goal, I figured it would be that in addition to opening people, I would try harder to close, such as getting contact info (from friend candidates, for lack of a better term) to meet again at a later time. You know, to build actual friendships. Nothing to report on this front but I instead made progress in other avenues.

When the night began, on the dance floor a girl and I made legit eye contact. She had a very cute face. The rest of her was nothing special, but good enough for me. And she was there only with a couple female friends. Cool, the game is on. I ask her to dance, we dance, then we begin conversing. She was fully hooked and definitely interested in something happening. There was plenty of flirting, sexual conversation topics, an escalation of touching, and plenty of verbal IOIs/cues from her. Such as "I don't like it over here by the dance floor, let's go somewhere less crowded." When we walked, she took my hand immediately. When a friend of hers tried to pull her away from me, she'd push her away and convince her she was fine. So this was a legit opportunity. Then come the logistics part of the conversation. I live about 40 minutes from the venue and live with my parents. Turns out she's visiting from out of town for the holiday. She's staying with a friend in town this night, then is starting a drive at 6:30am the next morning to drive to her rural hometown a couple hours away. Wonderful. During this set she's also tossing in resistance but I can tell it's weak. So, while my brain was going a million miles an hour trying to plot a solution to this, I decided in the meantime to see if I can just keep building tension and keep smashing through the resistance. So hopefully she could "offer" a pathway. Also, figuring my odds of going the distance were rough, I also wanted to take this opportunity to see how much I can get the girl turned on. One area of game that has always fascinated me has been the idea of getting the girl REALLY into you before really beginning the escalation process. Or in other words, gaming a girl in a way where she's so ready to go, you help yourself avoid heavy LMR, or logistical issues, or cockblocking friends, or stuff like that in the first place. So here I wanted to just test how far my charming powers could take me with this girl and see how easy this girl could possibly make it for me.

Anyway, during this interaction, as I was building tension and working through resistance, another 'new experience' happened for me. As we were talking in the back of the bar, she was giving me eyes like she badly wanted a kiss. But anytime I'd make a slight indication it was coming, she'd playfully back away, like "nope, ain't happening stud. I don't do that ;)" if that makes sense haha. I took it as 'keep trying guy' and I did, and she wasn't running away! haha. And sort of like what I was just describing, I enjoy the game of seeing if I can make HER kiss ME. So I figured alright, let's try to see what other tricks I have up my sleeve. We're on the conversation topic of kissing, and behind us I spot a group of 3 cute girls. They look like they're actually having a good time and are open to meeting people. Okay what the heck. Let's try pre-selection. So I say to my target, "tell you what, those girls look cool. I bet I can get 2 of them to do a 3-way kiss with me. If I succeed, I win a kiss from you!" She says heck yeah, you have a deal. I approach the girls, and straight up ask them to do it. Turns out they're all cousins so they were weirded out at kissing each other, but they appreciated my boldness. I asked for a compromise: a kiss on the cheek from each of them. They all did it and I went back to my target. She was impressed but I didn't achieve the initial goal so I wouldn't get a kiss. She however gave a kiss on the cheek. When I turned a few minutes late she gave a kiss on the other cheek.

Not too long later, her friends came up looking for her and they were leaving for the night. And that was that. The three girls that kissed me on the cheek I tried opening multiple times later throughout the night, and they were cool but they just weren't interested in anything more.

So good, new experiences. And a good almost-lay experience to learn from. In retrospect, for if (when) this happens again, here's what I think I'd try:
- Try pulling to my car. The thought crossed my mind this time, but it just had an odd feeling to it. Next time I should consciously ignore that feeling and just try going for it.
- Try moving her at least somewhere outside the venue. The idea being if I can get her outside the venue, then I could try moving her a little further, then I could try moving to my car, etc.
- Get phone number before she leaves. It's a hail mary, but it at least gives the chance that she'll text me later that night inviting me over.

A fun night! Looking forward to pushing further next weekend!

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 12:38 am
by ElderPrice
5/8/19 Got a few dates, nothing happened. Not sure where they stand ATM.

Haven't posted in a bit mainly because I haven't had much news to report. The main thing that happened is that this past weekend I had 3 dates... my first dates since January.

Let me refer to the previous weeks as Week 1, Week 2, and the current week as Week 3 for simplicity.

Basically I met each of these three girls Week 1 at my usual dance nights. My attitude shift of "giving" rather than "taking" must really be making a difference because these girls were interested all the way up to their dates. It was incredibly refreshing to see ridiculously simple signs of interest that I just rarely see, and haven't seen in a long time. Signs like: actually answering texts, actually wanting to chat and joke around, not flaking, etc. Here's how all the dates went:

Girl 1: This was a lunch/coffee date. We seemed to have a good rapport and getting each other's humor over text leading up to the date. But during the date, it felt like we just weren't clicking. She was missing that I was joking around with a lot of things I said and she didn't seem particularly interested in being there the second we met outside the front door. An hour in she claimed she got an unexpected work call and had to go take care of it immediately. I don't think I did much wrong on my end. She was just cold and off from the get go. I haven't bothered texting her since. I'm curious to see if she texts me after going silent on her for a week or two, but other than that I've moved on. This one is a shame because she was the youngest and most attractive of these three girls.

Girl 2: Evening coffee date. This girl and I were CLICKING, both over text and in person. Roasting back and forth type of thing. But during the date she just wouldn't turn on. She just wasn't there to fuck. We met at 8, and she legitimately had planned to leave by 10 so she could finish a homework assignment due at midnight. We've actually texted a little since the date which NEVER happens, leading me to believe she may actually be interested in a second date. We'll have to wait and see. I haven't heard from her in 2 days so naturally the needy/desperate part of my brain is freaking out thinking she's a goner hahaha. But I just keep reminding myself to be patient, and I have plans to hit the clubs this weekend so I'll definitely be meeting more girls soon regardless.

Girl 3: One of the warmest leads I've ever come across, but of course with my luck this chick is loaded with more baggage than an airport carousel. I can summarize it all this way: For our date she wanted to surprise me. She offered to pick me up then drive us to the location. She requested to dress nice. We drove to a hotel, with the plan being to watch the sunset on the rooftop bar, have dinner downstairs at the hotel restaurant, then do a little bar hopping to explore the city. We did all that then explored a really fancy hotel to end the 6-hour night out together. Now when anyone hears this, they would call this a date. Well this girl didn't quite get that so in her mind this was more of a hangout. Turns out she's FRESH out of a marriage (I don't even know if the ink is dry yet) and according to her she's really, really not ready for anything physical/sexual yet. The way she described it to me, she made it sound like 'I really just want to do all these cool things that I couldn't do with my lame husband...' Despite this pretty romantic night out, despite being another girl where we both REALLY clicked incredibly well, and despite me successfully convincing her to cuddle up against me when we were sitting on a sofa...... she recoiled in a snap when I went to kiss her on a cheek goodnight. This wasn't like a kid with a boner trying to get some. I was legitimately thanking her for a great night and bidding her farewell. A goodbye peck on the cheek. Like an adult. But she wouldn't even have that.

Just horrible, horrible luck. Basically haven't heard from her since, outside of a couple awkward apology/explanation texts the next day. Since we clicked so well and since I indicated I'm totally cool being friends, I'd be shocked if I never heard from her again. We'll see.

My own personal analysis is that I don't know what I could have done differently on these dates for them to have ended differently. Because of the growth I've undergone in the months since my last date, I definitely felt more calm, more confident, more playful, and more at ease than I ever have before on a date. The conversations went sexual, I always used chase framing, and I deep dove as best I could to legitimately get to know them. If I had to take a guess at what's wrong (assuming something is indeed wrong and this just isn't a tiny sample size), my guess would be that I must be getting dumped into the boyfriend zone by all these girls and they must be doing it before the date. Because they just don't show up to the dates horny and wanting sex.

Hopefully Girl 2 turns into something. We'll see. To finish on a positive note, I finally got a date for the first time in 3-4 months and it ended up being 3 dates with 3 different girls in 1 weekend :)

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:56 pm
by ElderPrice
5/14/19 Not much of a follow up, but some good things from this past weekend.

To follow up on the previous girls, I texted Girl 1 asking if she had a great mother's day. No response. She's definitely a goner. Girl 2 has been responding to my texts, but she's way colder than before our date. Now she's in the 'short responses with no follow up questions' territory. I'm going to to quiet on her and see if that reverses.

Girl 3 I also texted asking about her mother's day weekend, and she responded with the same strong interest as before. She said she's been really busy at work the last week and would really like to see me at dance night this week. I can't this week because I have something else going on. We're both planning on going next week. Who knows if this has any romantic/sexual legs left or if it's just friends now, but either way I'm glad she's still interested in something. She's very cool and definitely worth keeping around in some capacity.

Over the weekend I picked up another number from a girl who again, as of this point, is very into me. Responds to texts, is excited for our date, the whole shebang. I still need to arrange the date but I figure I'll see her Saturday.

The other new item that happened to me was when I hit the club over the weekend I had my first make out. I had never went for it before because honestly it feels stupid to me. It doesn't feel like an accomplishment. Well on this night I spotted a girl that was just super cute and she was also very into me. We were close and primed to kiss and I just figured 'what the hell let's see what happens.' And it happened. Easily. I got her number but I don't know how interested I am in arranging a date. She hasn't texted me since (for whatever that's worth) and while she was super cute, she was also pretty damn overweight.

Oh, I also tried a little day game this weekend. I had a bunch of errands to run so I was out and about for a few hours. Ended up opening 4-5 girls but none of them were close to interested.

Onward to next weekend!

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 9:18 am
by ThePhoenix
Hey EP,

Good to hear thereʼs progress.

A few thoughts on your last few entries:

  • Kissing. Iʼd stay away from it entirely at least until sex is imminent. Some guys seem to have some luck with it, but to me it seems like it shows your cards and defuses tension too much. The last girl I had over and wound up sleeping with, I hadnʼt kissed at all until we were making out, at which point she went for a kiss first.

  • You think the girl is not “horny and wanting sex”. Itʼs confusing, because they donʼt always act like it. Remember, women are socialized to appear asexual. A good policy is, donʼt concern yourself over whether she seems to want sex; instead, as long as sheʼs co‑operating, just assume that she does. The women Iʼve had most sexually open to me, so far have generally not shown much interest in sex before the fact. Until, at some point back home when escalating, suddenly she becomes really horny. Itʼs like a switch!!  lol

    So, take a pot shot and invite her home on some innocuous excuse. And if you get her home, you can pretty much assume she knows what that means. You have nothing to lose, because:

  • As I think youʼre starting to see for yourself, when the 1st date doesnʼt lead to sex, the 2nd date rarely ever happens. You can see that all over the boards, too. Goes back to the “Sexy Son Hypothesis” — while science hasnʼt proven it conclusively, there is significant evidence towards it, and my and othersʼ experiences with women seem to agree: women are innately attracted to men who get lots of sex with multiple women, because it may increase the womanʼs second-degree reproductive success. If it takes you more than one date to get laid, youʼre not one of those men. Dead simple, when you think about it that way. (Looking at women and sex in evolutionary terms has improved my game considerably.)

  • Women who are taken, drop the boyfriend line, etc. They expect weak men who donʼt “get it” to give up when confronted with that. But science has shown that women are programmed to go for two completely different types of men — the type they are looking to shack up with is typically not the type they are (unconsciously) looking to get impregnated by. That goes against just about everything society has taught you about women and dating, but again, Iʼve noticed considerable improvement from looking at things in these terms. Monogamy is basically a sham, and if you see it as such, you do better, at least in my observations so far.

    So, for instance, the girl from night game who was engaged. She may still have made herself sexually available to the right kind of man. But if so sheʼd be extremely discreet about it and also would be likely to be very selective about the type sheʼd do it with. She may have been testing you early on. All it takes is the slightest hint that you think sheʼs definitely not available to you because sheʼs taken, and then youʼre “not that type of man.” Hint: itʼs a good type of man to be! Here, you need lover frame to the max. Iʼve been sized up by married women before, albeit I expect Iʼll need a fair bit more experience before Iʼm likely to bed one.

    Of course, women may also drop the boyfriend line to get rid of you. Doesnʼt hurt to try sidestepping it, just to see if it works, though. It may even change her mind!

  • The girl who planned out the fancy date sequence. All that stuff seems way too “boyfriendy”. I guess maybe sheʼs trying to fill the emotional void from the divorce. In any case, I have to suspect you may have been better to just take charge and set up a more informal date, with intent to pull home, and just try to pull it off. Donʼt let her derail it — believe me, women have no idea how to seduce themselves!!

  • Good you tried day game, too. Itʼs hit-and-miss, but the hits can be very good. Iʼd suggest that at first you always propose a meet‑up, even if she doesnʼt seem interested. Reason is, she may well not be interested, but it could also be that youʼre expecting more signs of interest than many women ever give in this situation. Itʼs a low‑key setting, so itʼs pretty common for women to not act overly excited or friendly. Over time, youʼll get a better sense of when itʼs not worth bothering, but when youʼre just learning, youʼre likely to give up too easily, so just make it a policy to always try, unless of course she overtly blows you off.

  • Itʼs cool to do day game concomitant to running errands, but if you donʼt have errands to do, donʼt be afraid to go out and do it anyway! Iʼve gotten laid by going to the mall with the singular objective of meeting women there!  LOL. (For some reason, I actually find it much easier to overcome the approach anxiety when I go out for the day specifically to talk to girls, whereas I can rarely push myself to approach girls I see incidentally, but lucky for you, you donʼt seem to have such a problem.)

Most of the above points come down to having a little more masculine aggression. I know itʼs a hard thing to adapt to in our ultra‑PC, wussbag society, especially for us introverted guys, but we need to be a little bolder, because thatʼs exactly what women are attracted to!

Cheers,
Phoenix

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:06 pm
by ElderPrice
ThePhoenix wrote:Hey EP,

Good to hear thereʼs progress.

A few thoughts on your last few entries:

    1 Kissing. Iʼd stay away from it entirely at least until sex is imminent. Some guys seem to have some luck with it, but to me it seems like it shows your cards and defuses tension too much. The last girl I had over and wound up sleeping with, I hadnʼt kissed at all until we were making out, at which point she went for a kiss first.


    2 You think the girl is not “horny and wanting sex”. Itʼs confusing, because they donʼt always act like it. Remember, women are socialized to appear asexual. A good policy is, donʼt concern yourself over whether she seems to want sex; instead, as long as sheʼs co‑operating, just assume that she does. The women Iʼve had most sexually open to me, so far have generally not shown much interest in sex before the fact. Until, at some point back home when escalating, suddenly she becomes really horny. Itʼs like a switch!!  lol

    So, take a pot shot and invite her home on some innocuous excuse. And if you get her home, you can pretty much assume she knows what that means. You have nothing to lose, because:


    3 As I think youʼre starting to see for yourself, when the 1st date doesnʼt lead to sex, the 2nd date rarely ever happens. You can see that all over the boards, too. Goes back to the “Sexy Son Hypothesis” — while science hasnʼt proven it conclusively, there is significant evidence towards it, and my and othersʼ experiences with women seem to agree: women are innately attracted to men who get lots of sex with multiple women, because it may increase the womanʼs second-degree reproductive success. If it takes you more than one date to get laid, youʼre not one of those men. Dead simple, when you think about it that way. (Looking at women and sex in evolutionary terms has improved my game considerably.)


    4 Women who are taken, drop the boyfriend line, etc. They expect weak men who donʼt “get it” to give up when confronted with that. But science has shown that women are programmed to go for two completely different types of men — the type they are looking to shack up with is typically not the type they are (unconsciously) looking to get impregnated by. That goes against just about everything society has taught you about women and dating, but again, Iʼve noticed considerable improvement from looking at things in these terms. Monogamy is basically a sham, and if you see it as such, you do better, at least in my observations so far.

    So, for instance, the girl from night game who was engaged. She may still have made herself sexually available to the right kind of man. But if so sheʼd be extremely discreet about it and also would be likely to be very selective about the type sheʼd do it with. She may have been testing you early on. All it takes is the slightest hint that you think sheʼs definitely not available to you because sheʼs taken, and then youʼre “not that type of man.” Hint: itʼs a good type of man to be! Here, you need lover frame to the max. Iʼve been sized up by married women before, albeit I expect Iʼll need a fair bit more experience before Iʼm likely to bed one.

    Of course, women may also drop the boyfriend line to get rid of you. Doesnʼt hurt to try sidestepping it, just to see if it works, though. It may even change her mind!


    5 The girl who planned out the fancy date sequence. All that stuff seems way too “boyfriendy”. I guess maybe sheʼs trying to fill the emotional void from the divorce. In any case, I have to suspect you may have been better to just take charge and set up a more informal date, with intent to pull home, and just try to pull it off. Donʼt let her derail it — believe me, women have no idea how to seduce themselves!!


    6 Good you tried day game, too. Itʼs hit-and-miss, but the hits can be very good. Iʼd suggest that at first you always propose a meet‑up, even if she doesnʼt seem interested. Reason is, she may well not be interested, but it could also be that youʼre expecting more signs of interest than many women ever give in this situation. Itʼs a low‑key setting, so itʼs pretty common for women to not act overly excited or friendly. Over time, youʼll get a better sense of when itʼs not worth bothering, but when youʼre just learning, youʼre likely to give up too easily, so just make it a policy to always try, unless of course she overtly blows you off.


    7 Itʼs cool to do day game concomitant to running errands, but if you donʼt have errands to do, donʼt be afraid to go out and do it anyway! Iʼve gotten laid by going to the mall with the singular objective of meeting women there!  LOL. (For some reason, I actually find it much easier to overcome the approach anxiety when I go out for the day specifically to talk to girls, whereas I can rarely push myself to approach girls I see incidentally, but lucky for you, you donʼt seem to have such a problem.)

Most of the above points come down to having a little more masculine aggression. I know itʼs a hard thing to adapt to in our ultra‑PC, wussbag society, especially for us introverted guys, but we need to be a little bolder, because thatʼs exactly what women are attracted to!

Cheers,
Phoenix

Thanks for the feedback my man! I generally know and agree with all the tips you pointed out, but just felt like ignoring a lot of them this go round for the reference points, and to see if to my surprise deviating from the best practices scripts actually works for me or not. Won't know unless I try. Anyway, let me respond to each point to provide some context for where my thinking was at for these experiences.

1. Agreed. I don't go for kisses on dates anymore. Is this comment referring to the failed kiss on the cheek or the make out at the club? If the former, I was just trying to do a goodbye peck on the cheek. Nothing sexual or tension breaking. I probably wasn't super smooth with it, but this was NOT a kiss like I was trying to score. If referring to the club make out, yeah that was just for fun and for a reference point. And it was straight to the makeout. It didn't seem to hinder anything afterward, meaning she didn't seem like she cooled down and lost interest afterward.

2. I assume this is referring to the recent dates I mentioned. Yeah I don't know what to say here that's different from what I've mentioned before. Girls 1 and 2 just weren't showing any standard signs of interest - not during the date. Before the dates they were CLEARLY interested over text, but during the dates they showed little signs of life. And I've tried inviting girls (to their) home with whatever excuse. It never works. They're never ready. They strongly resist. My guess is either I'm not connecting or building enough trust during the hour/hour and a half date or I'm being immediately sent to the boyfriend zone. Also remember I'm working with terrible logistics here. I still live with my parents, so it's basically the girl's place or bust. I should be able to move out soon, but I've been having a hard time finding a roommate.

3. Agreed. I've seen this concept over and over so I know it's true.

4. I know this as well. I almost always directly call BS to a girl or roll my eyes to a girl when she drops the boyfriend line (usually because I meet her when she's out and there is no boyfriend with her...). Yeah maybe I could make something happen with all these engaged/taken girls, but my biggest problem is my logistics. Can't really invite myself back to HER place when she's living with the fiance or boyfriend! :)

5. Definitely that's the case. This girl is just a big reference point for me. This is the first time I've met a cute girl so into me and who knew of great places around town to check out (something I'm pretty bad at). So this one is definitely in the case of "okay let her do her thing and we'll see what happens. If nothing, then she'd make an EXCELLENT friend. So win-win for me." The only adjustment I made, and I told her this directly when she was sending her next-day apology texts, was that I'm not going to let her take up another Friday/Saturday night if she's not interested in getting physical/sexual. If she wants to be friends, then we can be friends during friend times of day. Friday and Saturday nights are my times to spend with or meet girls who actually want to get physical with me :) Again, I told her this directly, so I tried to pop the "boyfriend" bubble. This is just a personal experiment that I'll take a week at a time to see if this girl in particular turns into a sexual partner or just a friend. This is NOT to see what works and what doesn't. I've read the articles here over and over. I know the correct process and I know this isn't it.

6. Ah, good catch! I should have specified what I meant by "not interested." What I meant was, none of the girls hooked. Even for just a conversation. Basically blew off. Next time I get a hook I'll definitely go straight for an instant date or phone number.

7. I've been meaning for a while to try exactly this, but haven't had time lately. One of these weekends I want to walk around a big mall here for at least 2 hours and see what I can do.

Hey don't kid yourself, I get pretty bad AA during day game. It's actually just from social pressure (I think that's what Chase calls it here) - you know, where if you open a girl at a quiet grocery store or something and you can see and feel all the 20 people in the vicinity lock theirs eyes on you, like "Who dare breaks the silence?!? That's against the rules and norms!!" Hey I'd trade in a lot of my approaching skill for help or luck getting sex because there's definitely a LOT that I just don't get to reach that objective!

Regarding being bolder - yeah that sounds true to me. I'm getting there. Painfully slowly, but I'm getting there. I'll try and be bold with this new girl I've been texting. Gonna try just inviting myself over to her place for the first date. Not a long term candidate anyway. Thanks again Phoenix! You rock!

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 5:55 pm
by ThePhoenix
ElderPrice wrote:Is this comment referring to the failed kiss on the cheek or the make out at the club?

More of a general pattern. Those two, plus also the one where you were trying to win a kiss from (really blunt) preselection.

I guess on some level, when youʼre coming from such limited experience, just getting public makeouts and kisses can be a confidence boost, but do remember that in the bigger picture these things carry a high risk of backfiring, so itʼs not something you want to habituate, at least until you have more end‑game success.

ElderPrice wrote:If the former, I was just trying to do a goodbye peck on the cheek. Nothing sexual or tension breaking. I probably wasnʼt super smooth with it, but this was NOT a kiss like I was trying to score.

If youʼre in a culture (parts of Europe, for instance) where itʼs normal for people to kiss outside romantic or familial relationships, it should be fine. Otherwise, Iʼd still avoid it. I think itʼs possible to get away with, but only with an extremely strong internal frame that I donʼt think either of us have at this point.

ElderPrice wrote:Girls 1 and 2 just werenʼt showing any standard signs of interest — not during the date. Before the dates they were CLEARLY interested over text, but during the dates they showed little signs of life. And Iʼve tried inviting girls (to their) home with whatever excuse. It never works. Theyʼre never ready. They strongly resist.

I wish I could help more here, but thatʼs one thing I havenʼt had much of a problem with, so I donʼt really know what Iʼve been doing right, other than get her to do most of the talking. In most cases this century where I did get a date but didnʼt get the girl home, itʼs because plain and simple I didnʼt try but in hindsight probably should have. Or in some cases logistics problems.

“Standard signs of interest” are often really subtle, to the point youʼre liable to miss them completely unless really well calibrated — thus the advice to always try. The last girl I got home, and slept with, on the date was being pretty deadpan. Not unfriendly, but not even remotely enthusiastic. Like she was just chatting with a co-worker to blow time. Almost bored. Certainly not sexual.

With that said, you make it sound like the girl very obviously totally doesnʼt want to be there. If itʼs really that bad, there must be some sticking point there. Iʼd recommend that as soon as you finish an interaction, particularly one that doesnʼt go well, record detailed voice notes while itʼs fresh in your memory, including whatever you can remember about body language as well as conversation; I usually always do this. A detailed field report might reveal your issue.

You may also want to think about what happened before the date. I had a date once where the girl was being difficult, and in hindsight it was dead before it started, because I had failed shit tests leading up to the date. I failed to make the date happen on my terms. Are you communicating a lot prior to the date, or tolerating a lot of reschedules, or her changing the venue, or conveying even the slightest insecurity as to whether the date is “still on”, or accepting the “I will let you know when Iʼm free” frame? Any of those things could kill her mood before she even shows up.

Also, I would consider trying to invite yourself to her place to be a last resort.
ElderPrice wrote:Also remember Iʼm working with terrible logistics here. I still live with my parents, so itʼs basically the girlʼs place or bust.

Well, 30+ with parents is not ideal. Certainly, it would be a non-starter if your aim was to be the man who provides for a womanʼs family. But since thatʼs very importantly not what youʼre trying to appeal to, itʼs probably not as big a deal as you believe it is. Remember, women donʼt apply the same standards when judging fuckboys. Women expect all kinds of things that go out the window when they meet a fuckboy!

I have a buddy who was living with his mom into his 30s, and he didnʼt have much trouble getting girls home. Theyʼd just say “hi” to mom briefly and then disappear into his room. It actually worked out to his benefit in some regards. All his shit was in there: TV, stereo, couch, bed, computer, video games, hobby projects; made the perfect excuse to get girls near the bed. He even told me one time, “my room is a trap”, lol! He was still living at home when he accidentally became a father.

Now, in all fairness, he was fairly good with girls since his teens, and that probably did help him. And of course, he did try to get to the girlʼs place when convenient — but if that wasnʼt going to happen, he didnʼt let it stop him. Now, his mom was pretty chill. I donʼt know your situation; if youʼve got religious zealot, very nosy, and/or hideously slobby parents, it could be harder.

In my modest experience thus far, pulling to a girlʼs place is possible but depends on a lot of luck, pre‑planning and creativity on your part; the margin for error is way smaller. Unless the situation at home is truly terrible, Iʼd say the risk of failing to pull to her place is worse than the risk of looking like a loser living at home. So Iʼve read, these days adults are living with parents longer than ever, anyway.

If the situation is in some way super-problematic, could you talk to your parents to smooth over the kinks? I know if I had a son living at home, Iʼd certainly try not to get in the way of him getting laid!!  LOL

For a long time, I worried about all kinds of stuff in my home environment, even to the point of kicking out a roomie to reduce clutter. And bought a fancy dining room set... only to ironically have a bunch of shit piled up on it and not even use it when I finally got a girl naked in here, lol. Itʼs only now that Iʼve started to get girls home that itʼs begun to really dawn on me just how insignificant shit like this is. Same buddy even tried to tell me girls wouldnʼt really care, but I didnʼt get it.

Women are the biggest mindfuck on the planet. Weʼve been taught from birth that everything about getting sex is difficult. That the sun and the moon and the stars all have to line up. That we have to cover all bases down to a tee. The notion that women really just want a dick up their pussy is so alien that we canʼt accept it even when we try to. And they just let us live in that matrix, the blue pillers serving them while the red pillers satisfy them.

ElderPrice wrote:This is the first time Iʼve met a cute girl so into me and who knew of great places around town to check out (something Iʼm pretty bad at).

Itʼs in the past, but FWIW, Iʼd have prioritized this differently. Youʼre looking at “cute girl into you” plus “girl with venue intel”. If you try to get the latter before the former, you lose the former — something Iʼd personally have considered more important (being that you could get the latter just as easily from a guy, or an ugly girl). OTOH, had you tried to get the former first (i.e., sleep with her) and then the latter, chances are that youʼd either (i) fail at the former but quite possibly still be able to get the latter, or (ii) succeed at the former and almost certainly be able to get the latter. 

ElderPrice wrote:What I meant was, none of the girls hooked. Even for just a conversation. Basically blew off.

It happens sometimes. If this continues all the time, you either may be too clunky or you may be picking them badly. Clunky will probably improve with practice, but some detailed FRs could help, too.

You may want to try different situations. For instance, Iʼve generally had a lot more trouble with girls walking the mall corridors as opposed to girls browsing in stores.

You can also hit on store employees. Double-edged sword, because on one hand, theyʼre almost guaranteed to “hook”, but on the other hand, they get hit on more, so closing may be harder. I did get a date with a store employee, and Iʼd only hit on a handful, so itʼs worth trying. (Ironically, at first I could only drive myself to approach employees, not customers, but these days I tend to be more reluctant to hit on employees since I donʼt want to spoil the venue, so I usually hit on customers... lol.)

ElderPrice wrote:Painfully slowly ...

I can relate! Good news is, the curve isnʼt linear; as you discover just what you can get away with, it does accelerate.

Phoenix

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 9:35 pm
by ElderPrice
ThePhoenix wrote:
ElderPrice wrote:Girls 1 and 2 just werenʼt showing any standard signs of interest — not during the date. Before the dates they were CLEARLY interested over text, but during the dates they showed little signs of life. And Iʼve tried inviting girls (to their) home with whatever excuse. It never works. Theyʼre never ready. They strongly resist.

I wish I could help more here, but thatʼs one thing I havenʼt had much of a problem with, so I donʼt really know what Iʼve been doing right, other than get her to do most of the talking. In most cases this century where I did get a date but didnʼt get the girl home, itʼs because plain and simple I didnʼt try but in hindsight probably should have. Or in some cases logistics problems.

“Standard signs of interest” are often really subtle, to the point youʼre liable to miss them completely unless really well calibrated — thus the advice to always try. The last girl I got home, and slept with, on the date was being pretty deadpan. Not unfriendly, but not even remotely enthusiastic. Like she was just chatting with a co-worker to blow time. Almost bored. Certainly not sexual.

With that said, you make it sound like the girl very obviously totally doesnʼt want to be there. If itʼs really that bad, there must be some sticking point there. Iʼd recommend that as soon as you finish an interaction, particularly one that doesnʼt go well, record detailed voice notes while itʼs fresh in your memory, including whatever you can remember about body language as well as conversation; I usually always do this. A detailed field report might reveal your issue.

You may also want to think about what happened before the date. I had a date once where the girl was being difficult, and in hindsight it was dead before it started, because I had failed shit tests leading up to the date. I failed to make the date happen on my terms. Are you communicating a lot prior to the date, or tolerating a lot of reschedules, or her changing the venue, or conveying even the slightest insecurity as to whether the date is “still on”, or accepting the “I will let you know when Iʼm free” frame? Any of those things could kill her mood before she even shows up.

Also, I would consider trying to invite yourself to her place to be a last resort.

Thank you again my friend! I agree with your points. I quoted just this part to provide some additional thoughts on just this part.

Regarding signs of interest, just to make sure we're on the same page, can you elaborate or provide examples of what you mean by 'subtle signs of interest'? There's an article or two on GC here that list some examples of signs of interest, and almost everything on the list are things I do not see on dates. IIRC I already referred to those articles in this thread, and made some posts about this very idea.

Regarding what goes on before and during dates, yeah I really try to follow the best practices to a T, and I think I do. Virtually every date has had very minimal communication before the date, essentially zero reschedules, essentially zero venue changes, and I do send a confirm text, but I do it exactly as the articles here say to do it (ie. texting something like "meet me by the entrance" as opposed to "hey are we still on tonight?"). As for during the dates, I almost always arrange for coffee/drinks, I deep dive and try have her talk as much as possible, try and set the right frames, and break the touch barrier (which is basically never reciprocated).

If I had to be my own coach and speculate, here is my best guess:
I think you may be on to something by thinking it might be something before the date. My guess is that basically every single girl I've met for a date has boyfriend zoned me even before the date. As in, when we met and swapped numbers, she decided right then and there based on that impression and interaction that I might be BF material, but not hook up material. I definitely can do a better job disqualifying myself as a BF when first meeting a girl, but I must admit it seems a little difficult based on how quick these interactions go. It's like I can get a date and number before the opportunity to answer 'what are you looking for' ever comes up. You know what I mean? Anyway, I think the next item for me to focus a lot of attention on is trying to subtly communicate immediately upon meeting that I'm not BF material.

Does this not possibly explain my incredible lack of success on dates? If a girl already BF-zoned me, then yeah it makes sense that she wouldn't show up on a coffee date with sex on the mind at all. It makes sense that she would be reserved the whole time. Maybe it also explains the rarity of second dates for me. Perhaps since I'm being vetted as a BF, the girl is always expecting an elaborate date, with multiple venues, romance, and cliche date stuff. Perhaps the second she sees I'm going with the 'coffee date and pull' date template, she gets offended by the incongruence and loses all interest. Does this sound remotely possible? Or am I just grasping for straws? LOL. It sounds like a strong possibility to me, but then again, I am a noob.

Thank you again Phoenix!

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 4:36 am
by Seppuku
Hey EP,

Wow there's a lot to cover. Let me start by saying that everything Phoenix says is very much on point. All good advice.

Girl 3 was a clear time waster. She is clearly "not here to fuck". She just want to enjoy being pampered and dated around. She will try to make the party last as long as she can - without doing anything in exchange. The early signs of this behavior is when she is very directive about the kind of date she wants (it seems she was). Another way to view this is, she was the one leading all the time. Her recoil at a peck on the cheek is a huge No No. Your comment: "Now when anyone hears this, they would call this a date." Maybe according to Hollywood. But in the real world this type of date rarely leads anywhere. She will continue to waste your time into a dead end as long as you let her.

Girl 1 and Girl 2 looked like they expected something else, then got somewhat disappointed. As seducers, our experience of women psychology wants to say "you didn't lead to sex". My favorite quote from Chase is (more or less from memory):
Dating is a mating dance, and if it does not lead to mating, the male ends up dismissed as impotent
.
The last part to be read figuratively of course. It is worth meditating, and internalizing this. Fully agreed with Phoenix, "when the 1st date doesnʼt lead to sex, the 2nd date rarely ever happens" (well, once you are experienced getting first date sex, getting second date sex becomes easier. But not before).

About Girl 2. " She just wasn't there to fuck." How do you know that? I tell you something. Most of my dates do not know they're here to fuck when they come on a date with me. Yet, once I start to show them the way, they switch on!

About reading signs. Now I can read the signs of excitement she is sending, and some of them are extremely subtle. It can be something like, there was a good vibe and mood, and the next minute she goes silent. Or a slight change in her breathing pattern. Or a very subtle finger stroke. But it took me 5 years of regular dating to reach there. But I also had cases where I did not see any sign of interest.

There was a girl with whom we had a dull lunch first date, barely spoke, and she spent most of her time on her phone. What the fuck? But when the lunch was done, I decided to stick with her. Got a taxi, I got in with her (pretexting I'd go next to my own place). She got off at her home, I got off with her. She got inside the building, I followed her. She finally invited me to her home, and next we were on her bed. The point of the story here is, at no point did she seem to have any interest during the date, yet we ended in bed the same day.

Sometimes you just won't see the signs. Or sometimes there simply aren't any. Yet, if you choose to ignore and trust the process, you may have a good surprise. I would say at this stage, you should not worry about reading signs for now. Gain experience first. Like Chase says, do not chase for reactions. Ignore the unhelpful stuff, and just follow the script. If I'm right, that's what Phoenix did in his LR, and it worked to his own surprise.

What about the usual tension killers? Check these out. Are you doing any of that?

  • Body language. Anything you do that shows that you are in awe with her body? Subtle facial expressions, "sneak peeks" at the goods...
  • "White Knight" attitude, as in "she's the Princess and he is her serving White Knight". Gallantry. Hold the door. Etc...
  • "Try hard" attitude. Typical are "trying to impress her". Or "trying to make her laugh".
  • Chasing attitude.
  • High Energy level. Which is another variant of "try hard"
  • Always tending to her comfort.
  • The kiss. Agreed with Phoenix here.
We talk about building comfort, and it's an important part of the process, but always accommodating her is not good too, such as systematically jumping in to fill all silences. Sexual tension involves a subtle mix of discomfort. For instance:

  • If you feel her body language is cold, how about you put in your icy face, and let her win your smile?
  • She says she has to leave at 10pm, how about you tell her you're due to meet your buddies at 9:30pm anyway?

Some of your comments:
And I've tried inviting girls (to their) home with whatever excuse. It never works. They're never ready. They strongly resist.

I would really need to know how you did that. If you ask for her approval, it will be random. It all depends on how was the vibe during the date. If I see the signs she is sold on me, yeah, I may go with "I suggest we go listen to some classical music". If I see a mixed case, or absence of clear signs, I may assume the sale happened, and just tell her "Let's go!" as if it was evident where we go. Or, like in the story above, I can decide to just stick with her and persist. All in all, I always do it in manner that I keep the leadership with me!

Perhaps since I'm being vetted as a BF, the girl is always expecting an elaborate date, with multiple venues, romance, and cliche date stuff. Perhaps the second she sees I'm going with the 'coffee date and pull' date template, she gets offended by the incongruence and loses all interest. Does this sound remotely possible?

It is possible. She views you as BF, and this is no a BF/GF like date, therefore disappointed. But the other alternative "Oh so you're really the BF type after all? Oh well..." is possible too. She hoped you would show more of your "sexy guy" side on the date, but gets disappointed that it's again the BF vibe. I would bet on the second. In fact, if I could see your date I would probably be able to tell immediately.

But let us give it the benefit of the doubt for now. Try your early BF disqualification hint and let's see.

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 10:02 pm
by ElderPrice
Thank you as always Seppuku! Hopefully my responses below can shed some light on this.

Seppuku wrote:About Girl 2. " She just wasn't there to fuck." How do you know that? I tell you something. Most of my dates do not know they're here to fuck when they come on a date with me. Yet, once I start to show them the way, they switch on!

You're right. I don't know that.

There was a girl with whom we had a dull lunch first date, barely spoke, and she spent most of her time on her phone. What the fuck? But when the lunch was done, I decided to stick with her. Got a taxi, I got in with her (pretexting I'd go next to my own place). She got off at her home, I got off with her. She got inside the building, I followed her. She finally invited me to her home, and next we were on her bed. The point of the story here is, at no point did she seem to have any interest during the date, yet we ended in bed the same day.

Sometimes you just won't see the signs. Or sometimes there simply aren't any. Yet, if you choose to ignore and trust the process, you may have a good surprise. I would say at this stage, you should not worry about reading signs for now. Gain experience first. Like Chase says, do not chase for reactions. Ignore the unhelpful stuff, and just follow the script. If I'm right, that's what Phoenix did in his LR, and it worked to his own surprise.

I think I just don't get it. I've followed the script before and the pull just has never worked. I've tried it on dates that seemingly went well and I tried it on dates that weren't going anywhere. And it's not like I'm getting yes's then they change their mind on the way. Or I'm getting yes's then they throw up LMR while laying on the bed. They don't even think about it for a second. It's always "oh I don't do that on a first date," or "I'm not that kind of girl." I assume this supports the theory that my real screw up is happening before the pull.

What about the usual tension killers? Check these out. Are you doing any of that?

[1]Body language. Anything you do that shows that you are in awe with her body? Subtle facial expressions, "sneak peeks" at the goods...
[2]"White Knight" attitude, as in "she's the Princess and he is her serving White Knight". Gallantry. Hold the door. Etc...
[3]"Try hard" attitude. Typical are "trying to impress her". Or "trying to make her laugh".
[4]Chasing attitude.
[5]High Energy level. Which is another variant of "try hard"
[6]Always tending to her comfort.
[7]The kiss. Agreed with Phoenix here.[/list]

1. Nope. Maybe one compliment at the start if she looks like she spent a lot of time getting ready, but other than that, no.
2. I'll hold the door and observe basic manners, but nothing in addition to that. I don't mind paying if all she gets is a $3 coffee or something, but if we're getting a meal or expensive drinks, I don't pay. I suggest we split. A few times I've commanded her to pay, in a playful manner. Something like 'Nope! I won the so and so bet we made earlier. That means you pay! :D' I think it's worked each time.
3. Nope. The worst I'll say are facts about myself (this is one of the things I'm trying to work on - giving playful non-answers to her questions, rather than factual answers).
4. I try to frame it the other way around as best as I can, but I'm sure I look like I'm chasing to some degree.
5. No. Especially not these last few dates, since you gave me your initial advice in January/February. On all these new dates, I've been low energy, making sure to lean back, not in, and I've tried to show bordem as best as possible (when appropriate).
6. Uhhh if such a situation presented itself, I'd bet my inclination would be to make sure she's not uncomfortable... but I don't really see how I'd have done this on recent dates. We met up, ordered shit, sat down, talked, and left. No real opportunities for me to tend to her comfort that I'm aware of.
7. On all the other recent dates, I didn't go for any kind of kiss at all.

We talk about building comfort, and it's an important part of the process, but always accommodating her is not good too, such as systematically jumping in to fill all silences. Sexual tension involves a subtle mix of discomfort. For instance:

  • If you feel her body language is cold, how about you put in your icy face, and let her win your smile?
  • She says she has to leave at 10pm, how about you tell her you're due to meet your buddies at 9:30pm anyway?

Yeah I try to keep control as best as possible, but I'm just too green to be ready to address every unexpected thing she might throw at me. And based on how basically all my dates have gone, this means I'm going to be icy faced literally the entire time. Is that normal? Is it actually normal to go into every single first date planning and follow-throughing with being bored, icy, and barely interested the whole time? Sounds so negative and bitter lol.

Some of your comments:
And I've tried inviting girls (to their) home with whatever excuse. It never works. They're never ready. They strongly resist.

I would really need to know how you did that. If you ask for her approval, it will be random. It all depends on how was the vibe during the date. If I see the signs she is sold on me, yeah, I may go with "I suggest we go listen to some classical music". If I see a mixed case, or absence of clear signs, I may assume the sale happened, and just tell her "Let's go!" as if it was evident where we go. Or, like in the story above, I can decide to just stick with her and persist. All in all, I always do it in manner that I keep the leadership with me!

Well, again I'm pretty certain the girls have never been sold on me lol. But regardless, I've worded it just like Chase did in his articles. IE. If we were talking about a TV show earlier.. "I'm getting tired... What say we grab some food and head back to your place to watch some *TV show*?" Or... "Not sure what places have good dancing at this hour... What say we practice some dancing at your place? We'll have full control over the music and the drinks are cheap too."

I know you've said in other posts to basically take her hand and lead... but that's difficult since I live in a sprawling city where everyone drives. So since essentially every date I've been on has involved meeting a girl somewhere (the times I've offered to pick them up they've always declined), "taking her hand and leading" in this case means either:
1. Asking/convincing her to give me her address and we both will drive our cars back to her place.
2. Expecting her or me to leave our car at whatever establishment and letting the other person drive back to her place.

So doing the equivalent of taking her hand and leading her home (to her place) doesn't seem to work well. And I've tried picking date venues that are as close to her place as possible, but even then things are still far enough apart that it would be weird for one of us to leave our car. I have yet to date a girl that lived in an area where we could legitimately walk back to her place.

Thank you again Seppuku! I couldn't have made the progress I have without you!

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 11:57 pm
by ThePhoenix
Seppuku wrote:If Iʼm right, thatʼs what Phoenix did in his LR, and it worked to his own surprise.

Yes, thereʼs only one sign of interest I remember: she wasnʼt trying to get away from me.  lol! I invited her home not because I had any idea that sheʼd come; I did it simply because I knew that if I didnʼt, Iʼd never see her again, anyway.

EP, some thoughts on some of your points:

ElderPrice wrote:They donʼt even think about it for a second. Itʼs always “oh I donʼt do that on a first date,” or “Iʼm not that kind of girl.”

This is a bit of a guess, but Iʼm thinking here that you might possibly need either (i) stronger frame, or (ii) better excuses. Of course the former would be a lot easier once you have better positive reference points. So maybe the latter could work. I know youʼre trying to use excuses.. the ones you list are not terrible, but I feel need a fairly strong frame and good compliance. Stronger excuses might work better for a beginner when sheʼs more on the fence and thereʼs more risk of ASD.

Iʼm lucky, because Iʼm working on creative projects that most people find interesting, so I usually drop some vague hints about it earlier in the date and then when I think itʼs time to pull, I suggest that she come over to look at it. This is quite innocuous and Iʼve so far never gotten ASD like this. In the surprise lay, I additionally made up a b.s. excuse involving some quick business I had to execute at home, after which point we could look at the projects.

Your non-verbals are also crucial here. If youʼre afraid or expect sheʼll refuse, sheʼs more likely to. (This is one of the biggest challenges in game, I think.) If you make it seem like a big deal, you may cause alarm bells.

And again, I have to think youʼre making it immensely harder trying to invite yourself to their place. At least try your home, and/or maybe some action in your car. Nothing to lose in trying.

ElderPrice wrote:I know youʼve said in other posts to basically take her hand and lead... but thatʼs difficult since I live in a sprawling city where everyone drives.

Sounds a bit tricky. Youʼll need to be creative. I almost wonder if you could pick her up instead, but not sure how to do that when she drives.. way outside my experience.

Actually, you could always pretend you donʼt drive or car is unavailable. I once set up a coffee date close to a girlʼs place, who lived on the other side of town, and took a train to get there. After, she drove me to the station, but there had been some hints dropped in both directions and I later realized had I been just slightly more brave, I likely couldʼve gotten her to take us to her place instead.

Iʼve also had a girl drive us to my place more than once. I try to pick date spots close to my place. Again, this is another reason to try to pull to your place in spite of your parents.

ElderPrice wrote:My guess is that basically every single girl Iʼve met for a date has boyfriend zoned me even before the date.

You may want to pay more attention to giving off sexual intent when you first meet. Iʼm not great at it myself, but some things that I think may have worked for me so far:

  • I like to give a compliment on something thatʼs genetic — kind of like subtly suggesting, “if I knock you up Iʼm satisfied the kidʼll be beautiful.” The surprise lay, when I had first approached her, black girl, she had her hair in a simple natural style (they have a distinct hair texture thatʼs genetically part of them), so I complimented her hair. Had she had her hair in some fancy fake style, Iʼd have looked for something else to compliment.

  • Have some edge to your attire. For instance, I may put on a bandana along with a dress shirt, for instance. And often wear red or pink.

  • Use natural pheromones to your benefit. That same lay, I had some musk going on. So the science says, this will probably murder you with some girls and open up other girls to you, quite randomly, depending on her and your major histocompatibility complex on chromosome 6. Thereʼs a fitness advantage in offspring where this is dissimilar between parents, and women can detect this. If you roll with it, youʼll get an attraction boost (of the “impregnate me now!” kind, lol) in girls who happen to be MHC compatible, which in my opinion is probably worth the hit you take on the ones that arenʼt MHC compatible. (And as an added bonus, if you do happen to knock her up, the kid is likely to be healthier.)

  • Have a desire to fuck her senseless, and be comfortable in that desire. Not to say to slobber all over her, but just be in the right state of mind and sheʼll feel it. A while back, in a store, I noticed a cute girl, and before I actually approached her, I fantasized about squeezing her tits while railing her right on the store floor as she gasped from orgasms. Then I actually went up to her and declared, “you have beautiful eyes.” She melted like butter in a sauna. (Too bad she turned out to be a wee bit too young, cuz I prolly couldʼve had her.) Itʼs also one of the reasons I hit on black women specifically — because Iʼm very attracted to them physically, and on some level I think they can tell this from extremely subtle signs Iʼm giving off that Iʼm not even aware of myself. Itʼs a bit counter-intuitive, but I suspect that as long as youʼre subtle, smooth, and unashamed of it, lust can actually work in your favour.
It could also come down to your recent “give vs. take” mentality. A “giver” could be construed as being the BF type. You may find a more useful mentality to be “taking what you donʼt deserve” vs. “taking what you do deserve.” Just a thought!

Phoenix

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:18 am
by Seppuku
ElderPrice wrote:Thank you again Seppuku! I couldn't have made the progress I have without you!

You're welcome, but yet we haven't been able to debug your game.

And based on how basically all my dates have gone, this means I'm going to be icy faced literally the entire time. Is that normal? Is it actually normal to go into every single first date planning and follow-throughing with being bored, icy, and barely interested the whole time? Sounds so negative and bitter lol.

No it's not. Putting on an icy vibe is something you can pull off once in a while to put on some tension, and only for a short period of time (certainly not the whole date, and not every single date). But if this is what you are facing, it probably means that there is a big disconnect between what she was expecting when she accepted the date, and what she ultimately gets. What exactly were her expectations when she accepted? That is dependent on the underlying frame at the time you asked her out.

The underlying frame is what is implicitly understood and accepted by the two of you without being actually ever voiced out.

Both you and Phoenix may be up to something. You mentioned that she could actually be putting you in the BF box from the onset. And Phoenix had this pertinent remark:
ThePhoenix wrote:You may want to pay more attention to giving off sexual intent when you first meet
.
It reminds me of the actual challenge to properly pick up a store staff or waitress. Initially the underlying frame (what is implicitly expected from both) is purely about the on-going business (the clothes in the store, the drink you want to order...) and in order to succeed, you need to kill this frame in the womb, and replace it by a sexual frame. Else, you won't get anywhere. That's the power of the frame! By contrast, when you meet a waitress or store staff through a dating app, it is all much easier, because the underlying frame (what is both implicitly accepted by both) is "dating app, therefore dating".

When you meet a girl at a dance night, the underlying frame (I think!) is you two are going to have a nice time in a socially acceptable way. Or something along these lines. Correct me if I'm wrong. You have to change that to a sexual frame from the get go or else you may be trapped in the initial frame.

ThePhoenix wrote:Have a desire to fuck her senseless, and be comfortable in that desire. Not to say to slobber all over her, but just be in the right state of mind and sheʼll feel it.
...
I fantasized about squeezing her tits while railing her right on the store floor as she gasped from orgasms. Then I actually went up to her and declared, “you have beautiful eyes.” She melted like butter in a sauna.

Something like this is a good start. Has to be done from the get go! Or whatever you are comfortable doing instead, that will kill the "friendly" frame and replace it by a more sexual one - right away.

Here we may finally be up to something! It all fits together. I'll let you think about it and come up with ways you can engage the right frame from the get go.

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:01 pm
by ThePhoenix
Seppuku wrote:When you meet a girl at a dance night, the underlying frame (I think!) is you two are going to have a nice time in a socially acceptable way. Or something along these lines.

Yes, I had the same feeling! I just couldn't visualize exactly how his approach went, so didn't think to comment on that element specifically.

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:01 am
by ElderPrice
Thanks guys for the additional thoughts. Responses below. Phoenix, this is for you. I'll do a separate post responding to Seppuku.

This is a bit of a guess, but Iʼm thinking here that you might possibly need either (i) stronger frame, or (ii) better excuses.

Hmmm. Regarding excuses, do you have an example of a stronger excuse and why it is indeed stronger? You're definitely right to some degree about needing a stronger frame. My frames always feel weak to me. Now, I don't know if they are indeed weak, or actually serviceable, but I'm sure my frame(s) can always be stronger.

At least try your home, and/or maybe some action in your car.

I've thought about saying the words to pull home just to see what happens. I once read a comment on some message board that suggested you can say what you need to to get her to agree to come over to your place, but then before you actually head there say 'oh crap I forgot so-and-so is happening at my place so that won't work. How about yours instead?'

Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if my non-verbals weren't helping me when going for these pulls - it's definitely the only time during the date where I have some of any anxiety. How would you feel if you're attempting an ask yet again that's never worked once and your eyes are just insisting that she's not ready and is clearly, definitely not going to agree? I'm surprised I speak the words as calmly as I do.

But regarding the action in the car, Seppuku has advised this multiple times knowing I can't pull to my place, and I've kept this in the back of my mind on all my recent dates. But I have far more anxiety going for this type of pull. So how would it work? I come up with an excuse she will actually agree with that gets her in the passenger seat, then when I get in the driver seat I just turn and make a move? I really don't know if I can try this when a girl isn't showing me any indication of interest or approval to proceed. I mean keep in mind, these are girls that won't even reciprocate a touch on the forearm during a date. These are girls that clearly do not have doey eyes. These are girls that say shit about having to go, not trying to stay and keep the date going. I really think this is crossing the line IF you really are suggesting that on every date to get the girl into the car and escalate regardless of how receptive I think she is. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Again, this is another reason to try to pull to your place in spite of your parents.

I don't think I addressed your point here in previous replies. My parents are definitely in the conservative, awkward as fuck territory. And they share everything I do with their friends and other family members, and this just has always extremely embarrassed me. For basically all my life, I've shared as little about my life as possible with them. Just to avoid the embarrassment. Is it something I should confront and overcome? Yeah probably. Or I could just move out and avoid it. *shrug*

It could also come down to your recent “give vs. take” mentality. A “giver” could be construed as being the BF type. You may find a more useful mentality to be “taking what you donʼt deserve” vs. “taking what you do deserve.” Just a thought!

This is interesting and I'm going to think more about the mentality you suggested. But I do have to say I have noticed a SIGNIFICANT improvement with girls after adopting my giver/taker mentality. And I probably did a poor job describing it, but "giver" is supposed to be someone who is sharing with the world, who is happy, high energy, and who makes others better - without expecting or wanting anything in return. Definitely not a provider-type. "Taker" is supposed to be someone broken, depressed, low energy, who is trying to suck energy out of others to supposedly make themselves feel better, without offering anything in return. It's not on the same plane as the lover/provider/friend concepts. At least not how I understand it.

Thank you again Phoenix!

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:44 am
by ElderPrice
My reply for you, Seppuku:

it probably means that there is a big disconnect between what she was expecting when she accepted the date, and what she ultimately gets. What exactly were her expectations when she accepted? That is dependent on the underlying frame at the time you asked her out.


When you meet a girl at a dance night, the underlying frame (I think!) is you two are going to have a nice time in a socially acceptable way. Or something along these lines. Correct me if I'm wrong. You have to change that to a sexual frame from the get go or else you may be trapped in the initial frame.


I'm liking where this is going. This sounds like we're on to something.

I was going to say that I should probably describe exactly how I approach a girl here and ask them out. Fortunately Chase posted an article today that covers the meat of it! Haha. Check out How to Get Dates with Girls from Groups and Events. What Chase describes is similar to a dance night. It's definitely a group/event type of atmosphere so you can't just go straight to the pretty girls. And when you eventually get to them, you have to make it quick, get their contact info, and move on. The main way I can see that dance night is different is that dance night is also in many ways a giant social circle. There will be girls there for the first time who don't know anyone, but a majority of the people there will be regulars who know each other.

Anyway, for groups/events, Chase says to converse for 2-4 minutes, propose to grab a drink sometime, take her number, then if the conversation is meh, move on. You can keep talking if it's going well. Chase says if a girl is very into you, you can stay on her even more if you want to attempt to take her home that night. This is more challenging at dance night because of the social circle effect, and for dance night very few girls show up trying to get laid. Everyone's there to dance.

Anyway, I probably should try to explain my approach. I'll try the best I can.

First, as Chase says, when I arrive I say hi to all my friends. I start dancing with my female friends too. I'm just having a great time with all my friends. If/when I notice a cute new girl, I'll make my way over to her and ask her dance as if she's the next girl in my seeming quest to dance with as many girls as possible that night (for fun, not to score). Since new girls are always insecure about their newbie dancing abilities, I'll always say some funny/flirty stuff while dancing to help her relax and have a fun experience which girls always love. I wish I could think of exact examples to share, but none of them are canned lines. It's just spur of the moment, witty, funny, flirty jokes. When the dance is over, I can tell if she's interested or not. If she's not, she says thank you, quickly breaks eye contact, and quickly walks away. If she's interested, she won't go anywhere and she's happy to engage in a conversation. At this point, like Chase says, we converse for a few minutes (if that much), then I ask for a date and a number, and she agrees to both. I've been wondering if how I ask for the date is setting a bad frame? But I sort of refuse to believe such minor wording is dooming me to such a hard extent. I DO remember the ways I've asked girls out. I've said stuff like, "would you like to... meet up sometime, grab a drink sometime, grab coffee sometime, go on a date sometime..." Seem pretty normal to me? Then again as Chase says, at this point I usually excuse myself to keep moving along to talk to more friends, dance with more female friends, and meet other new people.

So, in my opinion since I'm the only one here seeing these interactions, my hunch is that it's not the interactions per se that are killing me or setting the bad frame. They're short and sweet, flirty, and the girls don't hesitate to agree to a date or give me their numbers.

If there's a bad frame, then I think what you guys touched on might be it - that something about the circumstances of the dance night are setting a tough frame to work with no matter what I do. Here's my thought on it: For the regulars, I think it's pretty easy to see that they operate like a social circle. So the cold approach rules and fast sex game plans won't work so well there. The new girls that show up are the interesting ones. My guess is:
1. Yeah, who wouldn't be interested in finding a mate, but the #1 reason they're there is to learn how to partner dance and to practice partner dancing.
2. I'm sure it's hard for the girl to be down for fast sex with a guy she just met when she's actively considering becoming a regular. In other words, if there's a chance she loves this dance and is going to stick with it and join the social circle, then she's going to protect her reputation with anti-slut defense.
3. Whether it's a big factor or not, I'm probably not perceived at all as a one-time offer. As in, she can tell I'm a regular so I'm not going anywhere. Less urgency on her end to scoop me up.

Furthermore, in my opinion partner dance nights attract certain kinds of people. First off I know in one of Chase's articles where he talks about salsa night, he specifically says salsa night is a great night to meet "quality women." I believe I recall reading in another article the general idea that higher quality women expect more dates or more effort and want to see you work before giving you sex. Most girls I see are mid twenties or older, and while they often are very attractive, they just are never quite 9s or 10s. The very very few that show up are clearly there just to dance and really don't show up often since they're bombarded with guys asking for a dance non-stop. Furthermore, of the very attractive 7s and 8s that do regularly go to dance night, it seems like a high percentage are single mothers. Where I'm going with this is, after getting a feel for the types of girls that go to these things, it seems like there's a lot of factors to suggest that these may be girls more likely to resist fast sex and to want long, drawn out courtships.

It seems plausible seeing the contrast with some recent episodes of hitting the night clubs. There was that one girl that was super into me, gave me the doey eyes, and who was clearly DTF if it weren't for both of our horrendous logistics. There was the girl from the last time in the club that was super into me and made out with me twice. It's amazing to think that I've seen more doey eyes and makeouts from two(!) nights at the club than I have from months going to dance night.

I don't mean to suggest that the dance night is the source of my problems and therefore the solution is to drop it and just focus on day game and club game. Because even back when I was having dates from online dating, I was still bombing them in the same manner. The girls were just cold, not sexual, and lost interest very quickly. So it's not solely these girls I'm targeting. And besides, a decent PUA should be able to get girls from dance night. That's not supposed to be a challenge. So while I'm sure dance night isn't the best place for fast sex women, it doesn't seem like that's the definite factor screwing me up.

Looking internally, I think I can do better establishing a sexual frame. But I need help understanding what that means because I just don't get it. Like, I literally don't know what to do and when. I don't get how to verbally communicate a sexual frame when your conversation is 2-4 minutes long and there are lots of other things to talk about. I don't know how to communicate it right at the start of a date. I don't know how to hold a sexual frame. Don't get my wrong, I understand frames. There have been a couple girls I was able to convince that I'm an astronaut because I thought it would be fun to set that frame and try to hold it. But the sexual frame is just not one I can visualize. If I can't visualize what a sexual frame looks like, maybe my body language is yielding the frame? Maybe my word choice is yielding the frame? What literally do I do to set it and what literally do I do to hold it? What is my mindset and how does that come out through my word choice? These things I feel like I don't understand at all.

Thoughts? Thank you again Seppuku. You too, Phoenix. You guys rock!

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 5:05 am
by Seppuku
Hey EP,

Very good input. Maybe we are starting to get close to something. Here are my thoughts.

I suspect it all boils down to what these women are expecting to get from these salsa nights, and it's probably exactly that:
for dance night very few girls show up trying to get laid. Everyone's there to dance.

She expects to be invited for dances, have fun, then go home. Period. By default, she views the guys walking up to her as "dance partners". Guys who are going to give her the fun - the dance fun - and that's it. That is my guess.

That's where you need to set the interaction on the right track, right away. The first thing you need to communicate when you walk up to her is your sexual intent. You need some sort of electroshock that takes you out of the "dance partner" category.

I would suggest you treat it as a cold approach direct opener. Deliver a genuine compliment that makes it crystal clear what your interest is. The benefit is that it immediately sets the tone of a seductive mood. I'm not much of a cold approach guy, so best is to read the articles about it, or the many LRs here, but I'd guess something like "hey, I saw you from there, and I had to tell you that you look absolutely stunning. I'm EP". I like also Phoenix idea of putting yourself in a horny mood first before going to her. It's contagious.

This way, the tone is set immediately. Next, chat her up a bit, then invite her for dancing, and do your stuff. Then pitch the date.

I think it will help screening out congruence and expectations problems later on, when you are on a romantic date. How about you give it a try and see how it improves your results?

Now I have more comments.

First, as Chase says, when I arrive I say hi to all my friends. I start dancing with my female friends too. I'm just having a great time with all my friends.

That's all good stuff. It gives you social proof, preselection and status. All helpful.

If/when I notice a cute new girl, I'll make my way over to her and ask her dance as if she's the next girl in my seeming quest to dance with as many girls as possible that night (for fun, not to score).

This is where you need to start with this cold approach direct opener instead. You are giving her a different treatment than what she has seen you doing with other girls. It helps you to stand out, and helps the frame.

The rest of what you describes seems fine to me. Just a remark - but all this is minor form:

I've said stuff like, "would you like to... meet up sometime, grab a drink sometime, grab coffee sometime, go on a date sometime..."

"Would you like to..." is coming from a week frame. Also remember that each time you frame it as a question, you make it easier for her to say just "No". Because of this, I usually use an affirmative sentence. It's not asking a question:
We should meet up sometime, grab a drink sometime, grab coffee sometime"

I wouldn't voice out "go on a date sometime", because that sounds like conventional BF/GF dating.

Also about your other remarks, yes, there must be some social circle factor (and social reputation), but as soon as she accepted the date with you, it shouldn't be a factor any longer - just remain extremely discreet. Perhaps communicate you're a discreet man.

"Quality girls" (the 9s and 10s). In general you can expect them to be used to meeting experienced guys - meaning from the top of the "sexual pyramid". Which means it's easier to get them when you are yourself experienced. But that shouldn't stop you from at least trying!

I don't mean to suggest that the dance night is the source of my problems and therefore the solution is to drop it and just focus on day game and club game. Because even back when I was having dates from online dating, I was still bombing them in the same manner.

Yes, there are probably more things to debug. But let's start by trying this direct opener compliment and see how it improves!

I have more comments to make on the idea of pulling to the car. Will do it separately.

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 7:48 pm
by ThePhoenix
Wow, lots of stuff here, but certainly I feel sexual intent is your main issue.

ElderPrice wrote:Because even back when I was having dates from online dating, I was still bombing them in the same manner.

One thing about on-line is that, while the initial frame is definitely not platonic, it could easily be boyfriend, depending both on the site and how you work it. But I have zero experience with on‑line so Iʼll leave it there.

ElderPrice wrote:And besides, a decent PUA should be able to get girls from dance night. Thatʼs not supposed to be a challenge. So while Iʼm sure dance night isnʼt the best place for fast sex women, it doesnʼt seem like thatʼs the definite factor screwing me up.

Iʼd be pragmatic here and say that you seriously need positive data points to give you more confidence, and that whatever venue is going to give you those the easiest, deserves more focus at this point. If youʼre having trouble shaking the “harmless fun” frame from dance night, it seems counter-productive to keep bashing your head on it. Maybe itʼs a comfort zone you need to step out of a little more.

Harmless guys generally do not talk to stranger women in most day game situations, especially not with a calmness and smoothness that suggests they do it all the time. That could well help overcome your initial frame problem. And while Iʼm not big on clubs, thatʼs a much more sexual initial frame, too, as youʼve seen.

With that said, your approaching as you describe doesnʼt sound terribly bad, but:

  • You might possibly be putting too much focus on being witty — a little wit is good, but your aim is to be a lover, not a jester.

  • Iʼm not sure youʼre doing enough to show sexual intent, and if I had to guess, youʼre not. A compliment is a good start. Also re‑read what I wrote earlier. Also look for posts or articles on having a “sexy vibe” — itʼs a lot of body language, and in part that also comes down to having the right mentality!

  • Dancing. There is one case where it can be a good way of opening: the Caribbean dance known as “wining”.. itʼs practically fucking with clothes on.. and Iʼve learned through much trial and error that you donʼt ask for a wine, you just take it! (Thereʼs a trick to that — body language is critical. Makes for excellent practice!  lol) Very strong, dominant sexual frame from the first moment. Ask a girl out after doing this, and sheʼd have to be braindead to not realize what youʼre up to.  XD As for the more “normal” dancing, I agree with Seppuku that youʼre much better off not opening that way. In fact, you might even play with not dancing with her at all, although that could take some creativity due to the context.

  • Agree totally with Seppukuʼs remarks on wording the date proposal. (Iʼm not even big on the word “sometime” as it feels a little weak or vague; itʼs something Iʼm trying to train myself out of, but sometimes itʼs hard not to, lol.)

ElderPrice wrote:Regarding excuses, do you have an example of a stronger excuse and why it is indeed stronger?

See my prior post for the one I tend to use. That one is “strong” in the sense that, if she was to tell her girlfriend thatʼs why she came over, thereʼs a fair bit of plausible deniability — itʼs not like her girlfriendʼs automatic reaction would have to be, “yeah, sure, Iʼm sure thatʼs what you were doing.”  LOL. Of course, you need something that fits in with your own life.

But itʼs worth noting that itʼs better for it to not even matter. Seppukuʼs usual excuse also fits into the “yeah, sure” category, but it doesnʼt bother him — heʼs already got the girl basically open to sex, anyway.

I had almost thought my go‑to excuse was perhaps too good, in that it might actually set an asexual frame. However, I still got laid with it, mainly because I just sat the girl down on the couch and talked with her instead of actually showing her what she came to see. She didnʼt even ask until seven hours later, lol. Basically, whatever it takes to make her feel ok to come home with you.

ElderPrice wrote:I once read a comment on some message board that suggested you can say what you need to to get her to agree to come over to your place, but then before you actually head there say ʼoh crap I forgot so-and-so is happening at my place so that wonʼt work. How about yours instead?ʼ

You can always try that. However, itʼs not as good, because (i) youʼre likely to come off as less sure of yourself on the initial ask, (ii) she may have logistics problems, and (iii) it precludes using things you have control over at home as genuinely good excuses to pull.

ElderPrice wrote:My parents are definitely in the conservative, awkward as fuck territory. And they share everything I do with their friends and other family members, and this just has always extremely embarrassed me. For basically all my life, Iʼve shared as little about my life as possible with them. Just to avoid the embarrassment. Is it something I should confront and overcome? Yeah probably. Or I could just move out and avoid it. *shrug*

If you can get out, thatʼs your best bet of course.

But in the meantime, there are some possible corrections.

First of all, you really need a shift in mentality here, and I suspect this comes back to core frame issues. Taking home and sleeping with women is something to be proud of, not ashamed of!! Who gives a fuck if they tell their friends? Either their friends will admire you for it, or theyʼre idiots whose opinions are not worth thinking about.

As for the awkwardness factor during the encounter, can you minimize the contact? Go straight to your space without them getting much of a chance to talk to the girl? Invite her when theyʼre gone or asleep? I realize that isnʼt necessarily easy, but a girlʼs place is in general also a logistical mess due to factors you canʼt even predict — at least at your place, you know the issues in advance so you can try to plan around them.

ElderPrice wrote:I really donʼt know if I can try this when a girl isnʼt showing me any indication of interest or approval to proceed. I mean keep in mind, these are girls that wonʼt even reciprocate a touch on the forearm during a date. These are girls that clearly do not have doey eyes.

While I suspect initial frame is your big sticking point, I have to wonder if you may also be digging yourself into a hole by putting mental emphasis on signs of interest. When you donʼt see any of the specific things youʼre looking for, on some level you become discouraged. You go on because weʼve told you to go on, but you do this with a feeling of defeat. This pessimism works its way into your non‑verbals, and this in turn causes the girl to actually lose attraction — which only serves to reinforce your fears and become a vicious cycle that spirals out of control.

Itʼs certainly a good sign when a woman is touching you, but they donʼt all do that. The surprise lay I had, on the date, there was very minimal touch and none reciprocated. Even back home, she largely kept her hands to herself pretty much up until the point where her vagina was preparing for penetration — she did get almost aggressive in those moments, but before then, pretty much nothing. When suddenly it became apparent she was horny, I was quite taken aback, because even moments before there had been essentially nothing in her behavior that would have led me to believe she wanted to have sex. The only real indication was that when I touched her in increasingly sexual ways, she didnʼt stop me, or pull back, or tense up. She just let me do what I wanted to.That may be the only sign you get.

ElderPrice wrote:I really think this is crossing the line IF you really are suggesting that on every date to get the girl into the car and escalate regardless of how receptive I think she is.

If she flatly refuses and gentle persuasion doesnʼt work, then, yeah, give it up. If she responds to your touch by pulling back or tensing up, then yeah, ease off. But if sheʼs just neutral, see how far you can go — you just might be surprised.

As for specifics of escalating in a car, I have zero experience there so Iʼll leave that for Seppuku.

ElderPrice wrote:This is interesting and Iʼm going to think more about the mentality you suggested. But I do have to say I have noticed a SIGNIFICANT improvement with girls after adopting my giver/taker mentality.

Reactions donʼt equal results. From a results standpoint, you at least make it sound like these girls are turning icy on dates instead of warming up. So I have to wonder if maybe you have gotten better at getting women to talk to you for all the wrong reasons. That is, youʼve switched from a “guilty” frame that puts them off from the first moment, to an “innocent” frame that invites friendship or boyfriendship but puts them off when they see thatʼs not what youʼre actually going for.

I do think itʼs good to be someone who is fun to be around as opposed to someone who itʼs depressing to be around. But if you focus on that too much, you could lose sight of the more important fact: itʼs a mating dance! Itʼs not about the girl having innocent, social fun — itʼs about getting her pregnant! (Well, at least figuratively.)

I know youʼve said youʼre comfortable in sexuality, but reading between the lines I have to wonder if on some unconscious level this is not entirely true.

The very fact that you had to center on this giver/taker paradigm suggests to me that youʼre on some level looking at sex as something that youʼre taking from a girl, and wrongly, at that. Like trying to fuck her makes you a leech. Having conservative, awkward parents has probably put dysfunctional attitudes about sex deep into your unconscious mind, and the broader society surely didnʼt help, either. I know you know better intellectually, but you may need more work at internalizing more healthy views.

As a male, when you see an attractive female, there is a natural urge to fuck her brains out — to penetrate her and consume her and bury your cum in her. And for as much as they hide it so convincingly, they have reciprocal urges. However, society tells you this is unwelcome and unacceptable and trains you, very pervasively, to reign in and suppress that urge completely. Just think, how often do you get erections in public? Itʼs such an embarrassment we train ourselves out of it early on. So Iʼve read, women get clitoral erections in public fairly commonly — only because nobody can see it, anyway.

You have been heavily conditioned into setting the wrong frame. There is a part of your psyche that has been conditioned to unconsciously communicate the message, “donʼt worry, Iʼm not trying to fuck you.

This may even explain your preference for dance night! It lets you talk to women without stepping out of the harmless guy mold.

Women are very attuned to this unconscious communication. Unfortunately, itʼs really hard to fake. There are some superficial things you can try to do (which Chase calls “fundamentals”), but you can only consciously control these so well and youʼll only get sporadic results until you internalize the right mentality. When you have the right mentality internalized, you wonʼt need to fake anything.

You have to give youself license to view women as sex objects — now, I donʼt mean this in a disparaging “get back in the kitchen” type way. What I mean is that sex is a central part of our humanity — sexual urges towards other humans should be embraced, not admonished. So if I see a girl walking ahead of me with that little switch in her ass, I let myself notice that. I let it really sink in how the way sheʼs moving is emphasizing her hips and her ass and how attractive I find it. If I happen to like the little naps in a girlʼs hair or her tits or her dark skin or juicy lips or pretty black eyes, I let myself really notice that. Even take it a step further by consciously reminding myself that Iʼm noticing because nature wants me to fuck her brains out, and how much Iʼd enjoy that! Iʼll almost feel it in my genitals. If sheʼs really attractive I may even think how sexy it would be to put a beautiful mixed baby in her. Just totally unfiltered!

Iʼll be honest that at first it did feel pretty awkward to let myself have such unfiltered sexual thoughts about complete random strangers. Thereʼs a trained reflex to try to kill thoughts like that. But every time I would catch myself feeling weird or awkward over it, I would stop myself and tell myself very consciously, “No, donʼt feel awkward. This is a natural and healthy desire.”

The good news is, since itʼs such a perfectly natural urge, itʼs not hard to awaken — you just need to open your mind to it. Iʼm still working on it, but over time Iʼve gotten a lot more comfortable looking at women sexually, and Iʼm pretty sure itʼs helped me. The more you normalize it, the better it will work.

You need to be comfortable in having and showing sexual desires. If you canʼt do this, literally nothing else matters because nothing is going to work.
 

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 12:50 am
by Sub-Zero
I think you should read Chase’s articles on being sexy, being smooth, not being a boyfriend, and developing a deep sexy voice.

I feel once you Internalize it, it’ll help you immensely.

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:42 pm
by ElderPrice
Amazing responses again. Thank you all! Now for another round of my epic replies. I think I'll respond to certain points, then reply with my overall thoughts in order to re-set the conversation. Otherwise this is going to get very hard to follow since a lot of different points are being raised.

Seppuku, regarding trying a cold approach direct opener, I've tried some variations before. One time a girl REALLY caught my eye (she had a red dye streak in her hair and was wearing red short shorts showing off her amazing legs) so I went straight to her and said something like "Hi. I saw you come in and I must have a dance. I'm EP." I know it doesn't sound like much, but trust me, it had the same feeling, directness, and emotion as a more common direct opener. At the end of the night she gave me her card (ie. her number) and a week or two later we arranged a date that went and ended the exact same as all my others.

Agreed with all your 'minor' points afterward.

Phoenix, regarding selecting better venues, I've already been doing that. For a long time, yes, dance night was my night to meet girls and practice game, but over the past few months I've changed it up. As you know, I started hitting nightclubs, and really dance nights are now social circle nights to have fun. Sure, I'll practice game on new girls if opportunities present themselves, but yes I am shifting to trying nightclubs and of course incorporate far more legit day game.

Regarding pulling home to my parents house, while I'm not there yet, I CAN say that in the last month or so I've started thinking about doing it. Like, if it's 2am or something and a girl is ready, I can probably quietly bring her to my room and quietly fuck her. Probably lol. I'm thinking about it!

Regarding going for it when she's not showing any useful signs... I don't know what more to say. We are talking about outlier girls here, right? Like, a normal girl should give much clearer signs to proceed, right? I get that you're saying there will be girls that show no indication whatsoever, but still want you to proceed. But that's not a normal girl, right?

Regarding your final thoughts on the best mindset, let me first start by elaborating on the results I have gotten recently. Up until January, for a couple years straight I was going on date after date after date with all of them going and ending the exact same manner, as I've described. The girls were cold and uninterested, there were virtually zero second dates, and basically all of these girls ghosted me after those first dates. Seppuku first started helping me during this time. After my last date at the end of January, I hit a very cold stretch. I just couldn't find a next date to try Seppuku's suggestions to save me! Then, whatever it was - 1 month or 2 ago -, I discovered that giving/taking paradigm. As I noted in the journal, I started seeing immediately better results (and/or reactions). Everything in life just got better with that change in mindset. Then, lo and behold, I started getting dates again.

Since the new mindset (and since January), I've gone out with 4 girls (one of them I haven't mentioned in my journal yet).
Girl 1 - One date so far, she still answers my texts, and seems to be willing to see me a second time (haven't asked yet).
Girl 2 - One date, then ghosted.
Girl 3 - Two date, she still answers my texts, and she's definitely willing to see me again in some capacity.
Girl 4 - Met her dancing, met up with her a week later for more dancing, we hopped to a club where she grinded on me and got physical, she answers my texts immediately and texts me often, and we're seeing each other again this weekend.

A small sample size, sure, but we may be seeing a new trend here. Compared to, I don't know, virtually 20-30 dates in a row that were date-then-ghost, this is going in a much better direction. This month or so of dates has been the best dating I've ever experienced in my life. So I'm quite optimistic that some sort of progress is being made.

Okay now for my general thoughts.

So I of course read your replies (Seppuku, Phoenix, Sub-Zero). I also was curious for an additional viewpoint, so I checked to see if RSD had a video on first dates. They basically had one. It included two coaches/instructors. One suggested the standard meet for coffee > pull home template. The other one to my surprise proposed something different. I wouldn't expect this from a professional, experienced dating coach. I'm really summarizing here, but he basically said invite the girl and other girls to join you on a hike. It's not a date - it's more like an hour in a day of your life that she gets to join you for. THEN the second 'date' can be 1-on-1. So, he sort of treats it like a social circle. It's like inviting female friends to hang out with you, then one day you can invite her over, or somehow you and her get isolated, then something can happen.

I was already suspecting the dance scene should be treated like a social circle, even if I met girls there 'cold approaching' them, and this interesting take on dating has increased my suspicions. It also makes sense because as I was reading the article today, How to Escalate with Girls in Social Circle, it mentioned a very key point I may have been totally ignoring. Peter writes that one of the differences in social circle vs. cold approach is that in social circle, "you will almost definitely see the girl again after you've hooked up with her." This is definitely true for a dance scene. Even if a girl is coming out to dance for the first time ever, there's a chance she may like it and come back again, which means there's a chance we will bump into each other again. This sounds to me like it explains why I've struggled with girls at dance night. No matter how much it might feel like cold approaching, at the end of the day, it sounds exactly like a social circle.

So here's what I'm thinking right now to try or work on, after taking everything into consideration:

- When going to a nightclub or doing actual day game, the goal will continue to be sex as quickly as possible. I will keep trying to crack the coffee/drink -> pull template.
- When going to dance night, I'm going to treat it entirely like a social circle. That means befriend all girls, hang out with them in a group as often as possible, try to arrange things to do as a group outside of dancing (like, say, brunch, dinner, movies, etc), then eventually meetup with these girls 1-on-1, discreetly, and see if that works and if their attraction builds over time. I will use the article How to Escalate with Girls in Social Circle as a reference.

- For my overall game, I will work on being more sexual, and I will continue working on doing better with frames. I will also work harder at disqualifying myself as a boyfriend.

That's probably all I'm capable of focusing on at the moment. What do you guys think? Sound like a decent plan? Thanks again everyone!

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 11:07 pm
by Sub-Zero
How often do you try to get alone with a girl? Like go to their crib or whatever?

If you do it a lot and get no results and chicks go ghost, then you need to amp up your sex appeal.

If you don’t ask, then that’s why they go ghost.

Your problem has to be you not being sexy enough to these women, you’re going on a lot of dates, so there is some attraction there.

I personally don’t think a girl would waste her time to get a coffee or something cheap with a guy that don’t like at all.

That seems to be the recommendation.

Now listen, don’t be try hard and force it too much. Don’t try to be too sexy you might look corny, and don’t try to touch girls too much where it feels forced.

Be cool and chill.

Keep up the work my man.

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 3:34 am
by ThePhoenix
EP,

Iʼll break my thoughts into the main themes youʼve touched on:


Seemingly Interested Girls

I think the girls youʼre encouraged about potentially seeing again are a mixed blessing. On one hand, itʼs good that your confidence is improving from not always being totally ghosted right off the bat. However, I also think youʼre falling into a trap with them that is all too common with beginners and one which Iʼve fallen into myself.

Basically, their apparent continued attention gives you that rush of excitement that a pretty girl is paying attention to you. Attention like that is naturally exciting to us guys when we are in a position of scarcity and used to getting nothing. You become invested emotionally. You get your hopes up on these girls. But what do you get in the end? Almost always, nothing. Iʼve been there a number of times. Itʼs easier to fool yourself into thinking that youʼve got a good chance with them, than it is to realize you fucked up during the very brief window of opportunity where it really mattered and that you have to start all over from square one with a new girl.

The first time I got laid, was it one of those numerous girls I had felt those “good vibes” about and was sure Iʼd see again? No. It came when I finally just went with the process of, meet a new girl, try to get her alone right away and fuck her right away. It goes back to the Sexy Son Hypothesis. If sex didnʼt happen on the first date, youʼve failed. Youʼre “not that kind of man.” End of story.

This is not to say itʼs impossible to pull on a subsequent date, but from all Iʼve seen and experienced, by far the girl youʼre most likely to fuck is the one youʼve just met. Pulling off of further dates or meetings is something that requires a much stronger frame, more reference points, better experience. Seppukuʼs advice to leave the second date tactics to a later stage was solid. The advanced guy can in some cases pull that off, but the beginner is just going to chase down a dead end, like the naïve poker player who keeps throwing more chips into the pot in an increasingly irrational and deluded manner even as mathematics would have told the skilled player to fold and cut their losses.

I want to say, sure, as long as you donʼt get your hopes up, you may as well give the subsequent date a shot, but I canʼt even bring myself to suggest it, because I have a feeling that you need to internalize more just how critical it is to sleep with a girl on the first meet.

Which ties into my next point...


Social Circle

This is a tough nut to crack. Some guys are good at it, but to me I think itʼs the Kung‑Fu of dating. I feel it would be unwise to invest any real attention into it until you have gotten at least a few good lays through cold approach (or possibly on‑line) and hopefully some repeat lays.

Part of the problem with social circle, apart from the obvious problems of social repercussions, goes back, again, to the Sexy Son Hypothesis. When a guy becomes familiar to a girl by some means other than his dick winding up in her pussy, her default conclusion is that this is “not that kind of man” — not a male who goes around impregnating lots of females. It is possible to avoid this conclusion, but to do so, you have to be oozing sexy. This is not something inexperienced guys are generally capable of.

I think one of the reasons that quick lays are easier is that, even if youʼre not all that great at exuding a sexy persona, youʼre not giving the girl enough time to come to that conclusion. You start off as this mysterious guy that she hasnʼt figured out. Sheʼs constantly trying to peg you. If youʼre not yet extremely sexual, the longer you give her to observe you, the clearer itʼs going to become to her that youʼre not sexual, and the worse off your chances get.

Plus, the effect of social risk canʼt be neglected, as I think youʼre aware. Women become the easiest in situations that donʼt risk their reputation. Ask Seppuku; I think he will tell you that the easiest lays heʼs gotten have been when he was only in a town for a brief visit — a situation where the girlʼs risks are about as small as they could get.

If you go through these boards youʼll see time after time a guy trying to fix up problems with a girl from social circle. Tons of ASD and LMR. Guys getting friendzoned. Guys getting strung along with lots of attention but no sex. Itʼs a really hard type of game. I wouldnʼt waste my energy on it at this point. You can hang out socially just to have a social life, but at this stage, donʼt look at it as a way to learn women or to get laid.

From that perspective, if you want to approach new girls at dance night, I think you should at least try Seppukuʼs advice to try cold approach and totally disconnect from the dance partner frame. I realize youʼve tried what felt to you like a normal cold open, but I feel you still went into dancing too quickly. Iʼd be more inclined to (i) express sexual intent, (ii) chat her up a little, (iii) propose a meet and get her contact, and only then (iv) as an afterthought, dance with her a bit, or better yet, donʼt at all. Try it! I think youʼll find that the ones you do get out for a meet, will be more receptive. (You will probably get more immediate rejections, but those were dead‑ends anyway.)


Signs of Interest

ElderPrice wrote:Regarding going for it when sheʼs not showing any useful signs... I donʼt know what more to say. We are talking about outlier girls here, right? Like, a normal girl should give much clearer signs to proceed, right? I get that youʼre saying there will be girls that show no indication whatsoever, but still want you to proceed. But thatʼs not a normal girl, right?

I wouldnʼt be too quick to say it isnʼt normal. Itʼs certainly been consistent with my experiences. Now, Iʼm presently fighting (for me) shitty demographics, so my overall volume of experience is not high, but qualitatively itʼs certainly been the case that signs of interest tend not to be overt, I suspect in many women.

In fact, Iʼd almost venture to say that women that show more overt interest are not necessarily all that interested, and may just be flirty or trying to get something out of you. Take this to extreme: walk into a strip club. Most probably, youʼll have a girl all over you in no time, displaying all kinds of extremely flirty overt interest. But all she really wants is you to pay for a dance. I donʼt have such a first-hand experience, but if I was in a strip club and a stripper was sitting around talking to me without doing all that gushy bullshit they normally do, Iʼd be quite encouraged to invite her home!

Another way to look at it, is that women want a man to be the aggressor. The more aggressive she has to be, the less she feels like sheʼs being swept off her feet. In a way, it filters for sexual confidence, since men who are not sexually confident need a lot of encouragement in order to proceed.

You may want to pose this as a question to more experienced guys. But really, I think youʼll be better off by internalizing that at the end of the date, only one thing matters: she follows you home or not. Seppuku summed it up to me as: She likes you, she follows you.


Mindset

You have seen good improvement in overall friendliness of women. That is one good aspect. I think this is simply a product of you not perceiving yourself as a loser. But at once I still feel you need adjustments to avoid falling into the trap of being the friendly, innocent guy who puts others first. This guy makes friends easily, but it doesnʼt mean he gets laid.

I do really suspect, especially given your emphasis of giver/taker, that a missing link is to be totally unashamed of your own desires and focussing on getting what YOU want. The guys who are just naturally very good with women are often perceived as assholes — something worth thinking about. (Iʼm not suggesting to be a total asshole, but that it is useful to realize how and why they attract women so easily.)

I think Chase has some related articles you may want to look at, about “devil may care” attitude and “how to be an asshole”. I seem to remember something about his success going up noticeably in one particular place when he did up his hair or facial hair in the stereotypical “douchebag” look.

Iʼm generally a fairly pleasant and caring person, but I also do naturally have a definite selfish side, and I suspect that the combination helps me.


Phoenix

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 7:40 pm
by ElderPrice
Phoenix, thank you again for another amazing reply!

Seemingly Interested Girls -

I understand and agree with all the concepts you're saying here. I promise you my hopes aren't up. If these were super hot girls... maybe... lol. But they're not at that level. Regardless, I'm treating these girls like "okay this is cool. Let's just see where they go. No matter what happens, I'll get new reference points for myself." And I still plan to continue going out and meeting new girls.

Now so far, two of these girls are actually going in the right direction results-wise. The one I referred to as Girl 4 I've seen three times now. The last time I led us both back to her apartment. She just did not want to go all the way, but at least I got to suck her tits and finger her. Since then she's just as interested and responsive as she was before. We haven't yet arranged anything for this weekend yet, but I plan to see her again and go all the way. I'll report back if/when that happens. Girl 3 still loves hanging out with me. Again, we'll just see where it goes. No high hopes on my end.


Social Circle -

Not sure what much more I can add here. There's social circle - related things I want to try, and yes, that is while acknowledging that social circle game is indeed different than cold approach. Probably harder. Definitely requires more time and more commitment.

All I know is that if I'm going to be building a social circle and making new friends as I'm out meeting girls and people in general, I definitely would rather be the guy that fucks his girl friends, rather than not.

Also - and I know you guys are going to talk me out of this.. I know, I've read the articles - but after all the approaching I've done and all the girls I've gotten something from, I'm getting pretty sick and tired of not even coming close with the girls that I find truly attractive. I want to sleep with the stunning girls with bodies that really blow me away. They just never respond to my cold approach. To be fair, I haven't done enough day game to draw this conclusion, but until I find time for that, I'm getting tired of going nowhere with truly smoking girls at night. One way to get hotter girls is through social circle. So that's another motivation for why I want to try developing my social circle more and learn how to navigate it to get some good results. And besides, since treating dance night as cold approach may not be working, treating it like a social circle is worth trying for the reference point.


Signs of Interest -

Yeah, again I'm not sure what more to say here that hasn't been discussed before. I still suspect we're talking past each other a little bit. When I say "signs of interest" I'm referring to signs like those mentioned in "Book Excerpts: Signs She Likes You" and "11 Ways Women Express Interest that Most Guys Miss." I just never see these on dates, save the two aforementioned girls. Are you saying you never see any of these either on your dates? Or you do see some of these signs?


Mindset -

Yep I'll work on this!


Thanks again Phoenix!

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 1:30 pm
by Seppuku
EP,

there have been many good things written over here, with excellent input from Phoenix. This is the seduction mindset in a nutshell. But I also noticed this:
The one I referred to as Girl 4 I've seen three times now. The last time I led us both back to her apartment. She just did not want to go all the way, but at least I got to suck her tits and finger her.

First of all congratulations! Yes, that is exactly the spirit!

If you can set yourself doing that as your primary objective each time you meet a new girl, you will get the sexual confidence and masculine assurance that will transpire into your vibe, and change your interactions for the better. Escalation tip: when you are escalating her, grab her hand, place it on your crotch, and tell her "meet my good friend". Some girls get instantly horny as soon as they feel the hard member in their hand. She may start taking the initiative at this point, and extract it from the trousers. Also, read all you can on escalating through LMR. It's usually the time to be persistent.

But well, I really hope to read more from you on Girl 4.

Your girl 3, if it's the very same you described before, is seeking emotional validation. If my experience is any guide, she will enjoy you dating her around as long as she can, and you probably won't get much in return. If you have other options at hand, your time will be better spent elsewhere. But well, don't take what I'm saying at face value, go and enjoy dating her if you like, but just be aware.

Now let's recap on all the previous exchanges.

Dance nights similar to social circle. Yes we are up to something here. It will make it harder, for sure. The "social anxiety" as described by Phoenix is a real factor. And yes, while I'm at it, my easiest pulls were always when I was traveling. Much less social anxiety with a complete stranger from out of town. It's real! However you should be able to succeed once in a while. I used to get girlfriends from dance classes back in my days (in the 1990s), and I didn't know *anything* about seduction.

Not showing sexual intent upfront. That was a very good remark. If you want to succeed in dance nights, you have to set yourself clearly in sexual territory from the very beginning. She has to view you different. Or else you may face congruence problems later on during the date. I read your answer, but I don't think you invalidated what I said. Be much bolder than that in your compliment opener.
ThePhoenix wrote:From that perspective, if you want to approach new girls at dance night, I think you should at least try Seppukuʼs advice to try cold approach and totally disconnect from the dance partner frame. I realize youʼve tried what felt to you like a normal cold open, but I feel you still went into dancing too quickly. Iʼd be more inclined to (i) express sexual intent, (ii) chat her up a little, (iii) propose a meet and get her contact, and only then (iv) as an afterthought, dance with her a bit, or better yet, donʼt at all. Try it! I think youʼll find that the ones you do get out for a meet, will be more receptive. (You will probably get more immediate rejections, but those were dead‑ends anyway.

Phoenix said it very well.

Signs of interest. Let's keep it simple. The only sign of interest you need to worry about is, does she follows your lead. That is also why I like to take her hand in mine, so much. I will get an instant indication about how well she follows me, just from how her hand feels in mine. That is the best sign of interest of all. But you can test her willingness to follow you using any other mean you can think of. Try getting compliance, for instance. That's right: She likes you, she follows you. If you have a girl you feel is following your lead well, then lead her to your / her home.

By the way, that's also why Girl 3 probably won't work. From the description you made of your first date, she was the one deciding the terms of the date. In other words, she leads and you follow. I see this pattern myself sometimes, a girl who wants to stay in control. It usually doesn't work.

Hitting the "really attractive" girls. Well, but these are the ones with whom you will be least outcome independent with. And outcome independence is central to seduction. The moment she feels you give a fuck is the moment you start losing her. Sad but so true. If she feels you are somewhat anxious to succeed with her, it signals her a lot of negative things. Not that kind of man. So that's why I suggest you leave these ones out for now, and focus on the "just cute" girls that you don't care so much about. It will make things much easier. THEN when you have more experience, you will find it easier to walk up the food chain, so to speak.

At the moment, the fear of losing her is your enemy.

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:04 am
by ThePhoenix
ElderPrice wrote:She just did not want to go all the way, but at least I got to suck her tits and finger her.
 
First of all, congratulations, thatʼs great to hear!

Definitely give that one another shot, but if you do get the all‑too‑common “failed mating attempt” drama, just take it all as encouragement to be more aggressive next time with a new girl. When you see whatʼs possible, it makes it mentally easier to escalate.

ElderPrice wrote:I definitely would rather be the guy that fucks his girl friends, rather than not.

Totally get this. Just know that youʼre much more likely to actually reach this goal by getting a good bit of positive experience from other styles of game first — especially as an introvert. The world of social circle is littered with the graves of would‑be seducers turned orbiters.

ElderPrice wrote:I want to sleep with the stunning girls with bodies that really blow me away.

I can really relate to not feeling most girls. I would shoot myself in the head before hitting on anything other than a black woman. This is, however, remarkably unhelpful, being that they make under 10% of our female population. I struggle with very bad approach anxiety, and I strongly suspect that it has been made much worse by most women around me being off my radar. I plan to move to Africa — thatʼs how strongly I believe that I canʼt succeed without being open to hitting on the majority of women around me.

Iʼm quite visual, and there are certain looks I just totally love — in particular tall, dark South Sudanese women. But I have to draw the line somewhere because if I only hit on what I considered truly hot black women, Iʼd still be a virgin. So while I am not in love with the mixed girls or black girls addicted to perm or weave or black girls that arenʼt tall or black girls that are a little chunky or what have you, I try to hit on those anyway because I need the reference points. First girl I seduced was far from my ideal; she was black and cute enough I wasnʼt ashamed to hit on her, but still quite far from stunning to me.

Iʼm not going to say to hit on girls you really donʼt want to hit on — there has to be some attraction there, — but the wider you can cast your net, the better. Youʼll be in a better place mentally for when you meet the stunning ones.

ElderPrice wrote:They just never respond to my cold approach.

This is not a problem youʼre going to solve through social circle game. Hot girl who doesnʼt respond through cold approach but does respond in social circle settings translates to hot girl who has friendzoned you. You need to fix the initial frame youʼre setting, regardless of how youʼre meeting the women — and this is so much harder to fix in social game, due to both very small margin for error and deceptive feedback.

What I mean by deceptive feedback is, youʼre actually better off having girl after girl blow you off then you are having a bunch of smiling, laughing girls who always respond to your texts but wonʼt sleep with you — think your Girl #3. At least when women are blowing you off, you get immediate feedback that youʼve done something wrong, as opposed to wasting your time pursuing a bunch of dead‑ends.

ElderPrice wrote:To be fair, I havenʼt done enough day game to draw this conclusion, but until I find time for that, Iʼm getting tired of going nowhere with truly smoking girls at night. One way to get hotter girls is through social circle.

Rationally, the women you can access through social circle are no hotter than the ones you can find in day game. All women go shopping or take trains or walk down the street or what have you. Every single one of those women you see in dance night, you could have bumped into randomly if you were out enough in random places.

(They may not put on as much of an act to look as hot, but if you need a girl to be gussied up and dressed to the nines to realize sheʼs hot, Iʼd call that more of a problem with your perception — I personally hate makeup, lol.)

Itʼs also a lot easier to attract hot women in those day game type settings where they are not literally surrounded by guys spoon‑feeding them validation.

ElderPrice wrote:And besides, since treating dance night as cold approach may not be working ...

Unless thereʼs tons you havenʼt mentioned, I donʼt think youʼve tried nearly enough to come to this conclusion. Give a good try to our suggested approach, before you decide.

ElderPrice wrote:When I say “signs of interest” Iʼm referring to signs like those mentioned in “Book Excerpts: Signs She Likes You” and “11 Ways Women Express Interest that Most Guys Miss.” I just never see these on dates, save the two aforementioned girls. Are you saying you never see any of these either on your dates? Or you do see some of these signs?

I read both of those articles and tried to mentally survey how much of that stuff I have had happen to me. The list was pretty unimpressive — of course, thatʼs partly my limited experience, but most of the success Iʼve had so far was not accompanied by any of those signs, at least that I noticed or can remember, with some limited exceptions.

To be honest, some of those signs are so small youʼd either not consciously recognize/remember them, or else drive yourself bonkers watching for them (and probably fucking up with the girl in the process).

Seppuku summed it up well.


Phoenix

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:06 pm
by ElderPrice
Thanks again for the tips, guys!

Please understand that even though we're having a fantastic discussion here...... this last month or two have been the best dating months of my life and I'm absolutely loving the progress I'm making! I don't know if we'll ever be able to say concretely what did it, but I've been on more dates in the last month or two than what feels like the entire last year. Definitely the last 6 months. And I've absolutely gone on more 'dates in addition to the first' (meaning second dates, third dates, etc.) in this month or two than I ever have in the rest of my life combined. Something's working!

As a matter of fact, I've been going on so many dates that I haven't had time to legit cold approach for a solid month or two. Weekends have just been booked with social circle time and multiple dates with different girls.

So I'll keep at it. I'll report back as soon as I have something new or worthwhile to report. Shouldn't be much longer than a week or two. Thanks again!

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:14 am
by ElderPrice
6/11/19 @#$%

Had an opportunity to lose my virginity last night. Dick refused to work. I posted on the Beginner board for feedback: https://boards.girlschase.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20816

It was the same girl from the previous post. The one who let me do some things but resisted going all the way. She didn't resist this time. She complied with everything. Now, she was sleepy so she didn't help at all to arouse me, but she wasn't resisting anything.

It's definitely Mental ED and definitely caused by anxiety or just generally not being fully comfortable. I have no clue how to quickly remedy this. Because if I have to be 100% comfortable to get hard, then I don't know what to do. I'm never 100% comfortable unless I'm alone at home. Any other time there's at least some level of discomfort, even if it's 1% or 5%.

It wasn't a desire issue. I was sucking this girl's tits, rubbing my face and dick on her legs, squeezing her ass, you name it. I was sooooo determined to seize the opportunity and lose my V card. I even layed there for a half hour trying to rub Jr. awake myself. But nothing worked. Nothing aroused me enough to get hard, especially in the face of a tiny bit of anxiety/excitement.

The good news is this girl seems to legitimately like me, so I'm actually confident I'll get more opportunities. But still. I don't know how to remedy this. @#$%!

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:11 pm
by SpookyTannedMoose
Dude! What awesome progress, this is inspiring. It is definitely a mental issue. I had the same problem when I lost mine, luckily she was patient and we tried again the next morning - sounds like you've found someone similar. I didn't get much sleep at all that night because I was so stressed about it. I can't really give any more advice than what has already been said by the others but soldier on!

Re: ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:14 pm
by ElderPrice
SpookyTannedMoose wrote:Dude! What awesome progress, this is inspiring. It is definitely a mental issue. I had the same problem when I lost mine, luckily she was patient and we tried again the next morning - sounds like you've found someone similar. I didn't get much sleep at all that night because I was so stressed about it. I can't really give any more advice than what has already been said by the others but soldier on!

Thank you my man! Glad this is inspiring!