Books & Articles Pretty Amazing Insight on Prison Life/Survival, Frame & Reputation Control

[Chase]

Somehow I stumbled across the Quora answers of this guy Matthew Holmes. I've probably binged 5+ hours reading his reports on prison life in the US:

Matthew Holmes

8 years in Juvy, 2 years in jail, 10 years in prison.

www.quora.com

Holmes had a terrible childhood, made worse by the foster care system, ended up on drugs, committing crimes, and finally killed a guy over drugs and money and went to prison. Cleaned himself up when he got out 10 years later, regrets taking a life, but his reports of prison life -- really insightful. This guy's a real character.

Really interesting case study on holding frame in a lot of very tense situations.

He talks several times about the tests prison newbies go through when they first arrive in a prison. There's a lot of seduction parallels, with people testing to find out information about you that runs deeper than what you say with mere words.

At one point he discusses the approach he used to get the guards to stop messing with the contraband he kept in his cell. Whenever they'd shake him down and take his contraband he'd look the guards in the eye and tell them he'll have another one tomorrow. So they could go and do the eight hours of paperwork about what he had and how he must have gotten it and fill all that out, and he'll have another one right back in there the next day. Meanwhile, so long as they weren't doing anything to him, he'd cause them no trouble. They'd figure out it was more work than it was worth and eventually leave him alone.

He had a routine he'd run where guys being taken to isolation in handcuffs would run away from the guards to his cell, he'd jimmy their handcuffs, then hide them somewhere in his cell no guard could find. Such as in crafts he was making with false bottoms or hidden compartments, etc. If the guards couldn't find the handcuffs they'd get severely reprimanded or fired. So after turning everything in his cell inside and out, strip searching him, and everything, and not finding the handcuffs they'd have to play his game and give him the cheeseburgers and a few other things he'd always ask for. Then he'd return the missing handcuffs, and split the reward with the prisoner who brought the handcuffs to him.

There's an interesting distinction running through his stuff between 'inmate' and 'convict'. I hadn't come across this before. There are a few articles that spell out the distinction the same way Holmes uses it. This one is fairly close:

Convict or Inmate? (There’s a huge difference, by the way.) | Prison Writers

Convict or Inmate? First of all, the two are definitely not, in any way, synonymous. The first is a state of being – and describes who you inherently are. The second is a being of the state – and describes who you are told […]

prisonwriters.com

As is this one when it quotes a now-missing 'Prison News Blog' page:

Inmate or Convict? What’s in a Name? | Jail Medicine

In the parlance of the penitentiary, we generally understand an inmate as one who becomes a little bit too closely aligned with the institution and its rules. Inmates are quick to engage in conversation with staff members. It seems as if inmates suffer a bit from the Stockholm Syndrome, where they identify more with their captors than with others who share their captivity.

Convicts differ from inmates. Convicts may abide by the rules, but only because they want to avoid additional aggravations or frustrations. Yet if he believes breaking a rule would be in his interest, he will make his choice and live with the consequences. A convict would never cooperate with a staff member in some kind of diabolical deal to spare himself. Convicts have an air of defiance. He may suppress that defiance, though he feels it coursing through his veins.

I think it makes for pretty interesting reading, especially for a different lens into various aspects of frame control (used differently, but with the same underlying mechanics here as they get used in seduction).

Chase

 

[Rakehell]

I have to ask, what made you interested in reading something of this nature?

Was it an underlying foreboding feeling due to an irreverence toward authority that lead you to think of incarceration?

Or was it just about seeing the frame control of a man confronted by other assertive men in a potentially hostile environment?

My father (a charasmatic man) was incarcerated for 10+ years and I find myself delving in on the topic also

 

[Chase]

@SunKing,

Prison survival always really interested me.

I was on a trajectory at one point in life that I thought would end me up there sooner or later. Fortunately I got off it, but at one point I was on it.

I also dealt with a lot of fear, and it was always a question for me: would I be able to overcome my fear to get in an all-out prison fight where I may be badly injured, may face death, may risk killing someone else and getting a life sentence, may piss off the wrong group of people and get ganged up on when I least suspect it, but do so because I need to to maintain my rep so I don't get eaten alive in there... or will I lack the backbone to do what's necessary, and end up becoming a victim?

Probably that's because for the first part of my life I would never fight back no matter what anyone did to me. I'd have guys push me, kick me, noogie me, throw footballs into my face. Once some big older kid jammed his dick-fingers in his mouth after he'd just finished holding his junk at the urinal when I tried to be a little goody-two shoes and saw him going to walk out and told him he forgot to wash his hands. Another time I really regret (and I am not a guy who regrets most things) some kid kicked my sister on the bus to the point it made her cry, and I sat by doing nothing. Whenever anyone did anything, I did nothing; I was totally passive. Eventually I started fighting back with fists when guys messed with me or people I cared about, and got into a few good fist fights. But it was always a question: if things got REALLY real, would I still fight back, or would I revert to that old passive self who just takes it?

I like stuff on survival in inhospitable environments in general. There's a book I read last year title "Deep Survival" about how people cast out into the woods, adrift at sea, and so on survive in situations where many others, including others around them during the crisis, do not. I eat stuff like that up.

It's always in my head that unexpected things happen and you can end up in situations you never thought you'd end up in. At that point, either you know how to survive, or you don't. So any type of situation like that, where the rules are very different from everyday life, I think is worth reading up on when you find a good resource.

Was it an underlying foreboding feeling due to an irreverence toward authority that lead you to think of incarceration?

Or was it just about seeing the frame control of a man confronted by other assertive men in a potentially hostile environment?

Sure, I've always been irreverent to authority.

There's a fear of authority there, because I know what it can do to me. But I also don't want to follow rules just because someone says to follow them. That said, authorities are just men, and if one decides he doesn't like you, it doesn't matter how well you follow the rules or not, he can turn your life upside down. People think "the system keeps me safe" but I have seen too many examples of people abusing their authority and not facing repercussions for that to have that kind of trust in systems. Systems are comprised of men, and men are all flawed. There is no system that can perfectly, or even sufficiently reliably, control for the nature of the men who make it up (what Holmes calls 'the human factor' in his Quora answers, in fact).

The frame control element there was really fascinating to me too. I like to look at different examples of people using things socially that intersect with things we talk about here and tease out common threads -- it can help you find things you weren't aware of when only looking at a specific social context.

My father (a charasmatic man) was incarcerated for 10+ years and I find myself delving in on the topic also

Hope he came out of it okay. Does he talk about it / share any wisdom from it, or avoid the topic?

I've talked a few times with convicts about their experiences, how they survived, built/kept their rep, etc. It's always a fascinating topic for me.

The Deep Survival author has a similar spark for his interest in the topic to you -- his father survived an accident that should've killed him, and it engendered a lifelong interest in survival situations in his son.

Chase

 

[Rakehell]

Probably that's because for the first part of my life I would never fight back no matter what anyone did to me.

No yeah, this is a totally understandable reason. And I bet it’s given you enough motivation to the point you’ve learned how to fight off 5 men.

I went through something similar when I was a kid. I’d never fight back with my older cousins. It wasn’t because I didn’t know how to fight (I actually knew how really well), I just didn’t want to ruin that relationship. They’d tease me or pick fights and I might kick back a little but never took it as far as they did. I wanted to be the peace maker even though they were the problem.

Stuff like that, that leaves a big imprint, is really hard on your mental for a loong time, but it also gives you alot of drive.

I like stuff on survival in inhospitable environments in general. There's a book I read last year title "Deep Survival" about how people cast out into the woods, adrift at sea, and so on survive in situations where many others, including others around them during the crisis, do not. I eat stuff like that up.

That’s funny, one of the first books I remember buying was a book called “how to survive anything”, the title kind of gives it away but there was atleast 150 pages about how to survive any unorthodox situation you might find yourself in. Shark attacks, hurricanes, snake bites, you name it. I had to be like 13 when I bought it I couldn’t tell you why.

Sure, I've always been irreverent to authority.

There's a fear of authority there, because I know what it can do to me. But I also don't want to follow rules just because someone says to follow them. That said, authorities are just men, and if one decides he doesn't like you, it doesn't matter how well you follow the rules or not, he can turn your life upside down. People think "the system keeps me safe" but I have seen too many examples of people abusing their authority and not facing repercussions for that to have that kind of trust in systems. Systems are comprised of men, and men are all flawed. There is no system that can perfectly, or even sufficiently reliably, control for the nature of the men who make it up (what Holmes calls 'the human factor' in his Quora answers, in fact).

Nah this is key. I’ve always, always had a distaste for authority. Even before learning about concepts such as prison. You figure we’re all people yet this other person holds power over you? Why?

The answer is obvious but I feel the same nonetheless.

I respect them as people, and for their bravery, as well as some other qualities that alot of them hold. But not as some abiding force over me if that makes sense.

Hope he came out of it okay. Does he talk about it / share any wisdom from it, or avoid the topic?

I've talked a few times with convicts about their experiences, how they survived, built/kept their rep, etc. It's always a fascinating topic for me.

Honestly from what i’ve gathered it all depends on how you carry yourself. My father has always been a fighter but he’s also a diplomat.

He was shot at an early age younger than I am now, over a girl. He made alot of money the fast way. He organized groups of people got them on their feet and in the end was sold out.

But through all of that he never held any bitterness. In fact he tells me there’s always a silver lining.

If he did fear for his life at any point while locked up I doubt he even interpreted it that way. He’s an excellent fire fighter in that way.

He told me the hardest part about being in prison was being away from your loved ones.

He told me that if you carry yourself like a man people will respect you for it. If you can handle yourself without physical violence people will respect you even more.

He cautions me of authority figures because like we said they are just people. Nothing is stopping them from making your life hard if they are simply just having a bad day.

Treat them with the same respect as anyone else, carry yourself like a man, and they’ll usually treat you the same.

Some might condescend but you just handle it like you would anyone else who condescends.

Unfortunately I don’t have any horror stories that I can share with you about it. But I can tell you that it’s a matter of social intuition and knowing when and how to act and knowing if you should. Atleast thats what i’ve gathered from him.

He’s out now and it isn’t like he’s scared straight if you know what I mean. But he doesn’t carry himself like some convict. Just a cool humble gregarious guy. An entrepreneur at best.

 

[Headlines By Drake]

I can relate with your story so much @Chase

I've yet to be in a fight in real life and I am nearing 30. Then I hear about guys who knew how to fight and got into schoolyard brawls and it makes me feel like that part of me is undeveloped. I've almost thought of taking up MMA next year at a local gym so I can learn how to fight but historically, at least when growing up, I did not do well in dog eat dog environments.

It's unfortunate what happened with you sister but man, thinking to how I was raised, I could see myself also not doing anything. I had instances where I let a couple of kids slap me in middle school but because my parents taught me to be so obedient, I didn't do a thing. A part of that still sticks with me.

As for authority, I agree. Life can throw any curveball at you and before you know it, you are at the whims of it. I mean as someone who leans to the right politically, who knows what the government throws at you in the coming years to where you are in a tough spot. It is some scary scary stuff to think about and has me more paranoid than most.

With stuff like that though, I have come to accept that I would be screwed if I end up in a legally tough situation. I have lived a clean life but these days, just having the wrong political view I feel like can land you on a watchlist.