FU Indirect street open to insta-date - failed to escalate properly?

[DarkJedi]

I've been trying some indirect game as the situation permits, since it does seem to get me more solid opens and it helps keep my frame. Escalating properly after seems to be a big sticking point.

The Approach​

I was just walking to a cafe near my place to read a book. Didn't have plans to do daygame. I'm in a chill, not-so-social headspace.

On the way, I see this girl in all-black, walking towards me from a distance. Monitored through peripherals and made EC almost at the same time as her as we pass. Saw curiosity in her eyes (best way I can describe it).

I think for a second, say fuck it, turn and walk toward her. She's walking fast and we have a lot of distance between us. There are also other people walking between us. I'm still not fully sure I should go for it, walking at a leisurely pace. She looks back once and looks in my direction (thankfully I wasn't directly looking) and I'm thinking this is gonna get creepy if I don't do something quick lol.

She reaches an intersection, crosses and stops on the other side. I cross and see she's on the phone talking, and pass by. Pretend to look at some garden for a minute and start walking back, see she's done with the call. I pass her by (she has her back towards me) and at the last moment turn my head towards her and she turns, gives me a smile and turns promptly back. Very flirty, I'm in!

Sidenote: when going indirect I think I really become too cautious. Not sure if this level of pussyfooting is good. I do want the interactions to be smooth and natural though

I playfully say "hey!"
She turns back towards me, smiles bigger and says "hi!"
She's way cuter than I had originally thought!

DJ: So, I saw you like twice while I was walking about
HB: I saw you thrice!
DJ: Oh, did you?
HB: Yeah, once before in the street, and then you passed me, and now here again
DJ: Oh you've been noticing me so much eh?
HB: (playfully suspicious) What are you upto?
DJ: Was going to the cafe to read, too busy there. Decided to check out that garden instead. Saw you walking about and got curious

Then we get into a general light getting-to-know conversation. I had locked myself in, leaning against a car. Turns out she'd lost her bike and was looking for it, teased her about it. The whole thing is playful, and we also found out some commonalities which boosted the social frame - favorite cities, views about the locals, etc.

I realize that we're well past the hook point and enjoying the conversation. I ask "Hey, what are you upto later?"
"Nothing special I guess, I was supposed to go play tennis but I got no bike lol"
"Haha perfect. Let's get a drink and keep on talking"
"Sure!"

Instant Date​

Not too many decent spots nearby. I take her to a small Irish pub. Loud music, but this is still more intimate than the cafe I was going to.

She takes off her coat and sits opposite me. Doesn't wanna drink alcohol, we order some non alcoholic beer.

I notice some tattoos on her arms. We're talking, still playful. I make a small sexual innuendo, she laughs with a bit of suspicion in her eyes. I notice that I'm not in a dominant/masculine headspace, I almost felt apologetic after making the joke, didn't own it.

We start talking about the tattoos. I'm deep diving, about the story behind each. Go into how tattoos are a way for self-expression and owning your story. Get especially curious about her favorite tattoo and cold-read something about her personality which she agrees with.

I'm thinking I should escalate touch. I take her hand to examine another tattoo, she lets me but I sense some surprise and discomfort, so I just let it go and keep on talking.

We keep talking about deep stuff, childhood, culture and all, while I break it in-between with some light teasing. She's witty and playful, but calm. I felt somehow that even though I'm the one teasing her, I'm still the more reactive one.

It didn't feel right to try to touch her again. Normally I also ask a girl sitting opposite to come sit beside me after some point, but the vibe didn't feel right. Its like I've been hiding my intentions all this while, and now my balls have shrunk and I'm afraid of rejection! All in my head?

We talk some more, itts been like 1 hr in the bar by now. She then mentions she wants to leave in 10 mins since she wants to continue with some artwork she was making. <- This I guess was the sign she was done with the thing.

I say cool, refer to an earlier inside joke and say that we should continue that another day. She agrees and we exchange numbers.

I walk her to her busstop which is on my way home, and at the busstop I decide I should try and ask her to come home (super bad timing in retrospect).

DJ: You really wanna do artwork at 10? I live right here, let's chill with some tea
HB: (looks suspicious) Err I actually wanna go home
DJ: Ok sure, was just asking

Vibe got a bit awkward, tried to salvage by changing the subject, hugged her bye and left with a neutral vibe.

Texting​

We bantered a bit on text and left it there. 2 days later I asked her to meet.
She then took a while to reply and wrote that its better we don't meet coz she didn't feel we hit it off. But thanked for the nice conversation.

Takeaways​

I'm pussyfooting hard, and especially when I'm trying indirect. Also feeling less dominant and low-momentum in general. Maybe I should stick to direct till I sort things out. Direct kinda gives me "permission" to be more dominant. I will eventually have to figure out a way to do that while running indirect.

Sometimes you can tease a girl and still come off as friendly. Teases should be more sexual/chase-framey

 

[Higher]

I think this all boiled down to you being confused due to not showing intent as quickly as possible.

when going indirect I think I really become too cautious. Not sure if this level of pussyfooting is good. I do want the interactions to be smooth and natural though

Yeah, sometimes i too need a bit of time to craft the right approach. I want the opener to be as strong as possible, so its usually the right call.

Some other times tho i go direct, especially when a girl clearly shows signs of interest - like in this case.

I playfully say "hey!"
She turns back towards me, smiles bigger and says "hi!"
She's way cuter than I had originally thought!

This is very good. Totally a direct opener situation.

Saw you walking about and got curious

Id have def opened direct with, look i gotta tell you, ive seen you earlier and i like your style.

Not sure what "curious" would mean if somebody told me.

"Nothing special I guess, I was supposed to go play tennis but I got no bike lol"
"Haha perfect. Let's get a drink and keep on talking"
"Sure!"

So shes def game. Did you compliment her at any point during the convo?

she laughs with a bit of suspicion in her eyes

I notice that I'm not in a dominant/masculine headspace, I almost felt apologetic after making the joke, didn't own it.

I sense some surprise and discomfort, so I just let it go and keep on talking

I felt somehow that even though I'm the one teasing her, I'm still the more reactive one

Not sure if your intent was clear to her at any point in the interaction.

For me, stating my intent puts me in the drivers seat and clears things up. If i dont own my intent and desires, i feel i get both myself and the girl confused.

And this should happen regardless of the opener - ie. even going indirect requires the intent to be clear as soon as possible right after it, especially in day game.

but the vibe didn't feel right. Its like I've been hiding my intentions all this while, and now my balls have shrunk and I'm afraid of rejection! All in my head?

Could it be that you wanting to experiment with indirect led you to believe that indirect = not showing intent?

And girls reflect our confusion at us like mirrors.

She then mentions she wants to leave in 10 mins since she wants to continue with some artwork she was making. <- This I guess was the sign she was done with the thing.

Yeah, she lost hope.

I decide I should try and ask her to come home (super bad timing in retrospect)

It would seem very weird for her to say yes to that right now.

Direct kinda gives me "permission" to be more dominant. I will eventually have to figure out a way to do that while running indirect.

You might try with complimenting the girl right after the opener.

Indirect is good as a "foot in the door" strategy, but then stating intent is necessary to clear things up, especially in a day game situation.

Sth like:

Hey, do you know where X coffee place is?​

(Oh its right there to the left)​

Thanks! Im walking around like an idiot trying to find it. They tell me its the best coffee place in town.​

(Its pretty good)​

Is it tho? I trust you here eh​

(Haha its really good)​

Hey btw, gotta tell you, i love your style.​

(Thanks!)​

Whats your name?​

(Name)​

--

Good job in taking the shot anyway! She was clearly attracted, and you turned around and walked up to her. Something i should do more often too.

 

[DarkJedi]

I think this all boiled down to you being confused due to not showing intent as quickly as possible.

Think so too. The girl didn't know where we were.

What I'm wondering is if there are ways to salvage this situation in case I didn't show intent quickly. The longer I wait, the harder it feels to show intent

Id have def opened direct with, look i gotta tell you, ive seen you earlier and i like your style.

Hmm yeah. In this situation it felt a bit off to me. Following a girl for a while and then basically admitting you followed her coz she was cute feels both creepy and violates law of least effort. But yeah, maybe something like switching from indirect -> direct like you mentioned somewhere else, to first get a foot in the door.

So shes def game. Did you compliment her at any point during the convo?

Lol no. Nowhere, now that I think about it. The more I waited, the more I hesitated to compliment.

The only proper intentful thing that I did was to take her hand to examine the tattoo, which made her uncomfortable. Thinking about that, its probably coz there was not much intent before and this was a sudden jump in showing intent and not baby-stepping enough. I should have tried it once more though, instead of giving up completely.

For me, stating my intent puts me in the drivers seat and clears things up. If i dont own my intent and desires, i feel i get both myself and the girl confused.

And this should happen regardless of the opener - ie. even going indirect requires the intent to be clear as soon as possible right after it, especially in day game.

True. Also weeds out the uninterested ones.
Hiding my intentions seems in-genuine to myself as well, and she can feel that too I suppose.

Looking back though, I've had successful seductions where I've not been explicitly verbal in my intent, mixing nonverbals with chase-frames, push-pull, etc. In all of those though, it felt that the intent was still communicated and me and the girl are on the same page.

Also, all these other girls felt like they submitted to me, almost from the start. This particular girl felt more like on an equal footing, calm, controlled.

Sth like:

Hey, do you know where X coffee place is?
(Oh its right there to the left)
Thanks! Im walking around like an idiot trying to find it. They tell me its the best coffee place in town.
(Its pretty good)
Is it tho? I trust you here eh
(Haha its really good)
Hey btw, gotta tell you, i love your style.
(Thanks!)
Whats your name?
(Name)

Never tried this style. Will be something in my list of experiments to do haha!

Good job in taking the shot anyway! She was clearly attracted, and you turned around and walked up to her. Something i should do more often too.

Thanks man! Yeah, a lot of these beauties walking about instead of sitting around. Go for it!

 

[Will_V]

I've been trying some indirect game as the situation permits, since it does seem to get me more solid opens and it helps keep my frame. Escalating properly after seems to be a big sticking point.

The Approach​

I was just walking to a cafe near my place to read a book. Didn't have plans to do daygame. I'm in a chill, not-so-social headspace.

On the way, I see this girl in all-black, walking towards me from a distance. Monitored through peripherals and made EC almost at the same time as her as we pass. Saw curiosity in her eyes (best way I can describe it).

I think for a second, say fuck it, turn and walk toward her. She's walking fast and we have a lot of distance between us. There are also other people walking between us. I'm still not fully sure I should go for it, walking at a leisurely pace. She looks back once and looks in my direction (thankfully I wasn't directly looking) and I'm thinking this is gonna get creepy if I don't do something quick lol.

She reaches an intersection, crosses and stops on the other side. I cross and see she's on the phone talking, and pass by. Pretend to look at some garden for a minute and start walking back, see she's done with the call. I pass her by (she has her back towards me) and at the last moment turn my head towards her and she turns, gives me a smile and turns promptly back. Very flirty, I'm in!

Sidenote: when going indirect I think I really become too cautious. Not sure if this level of pussyfooting is good. I do want the interactions to be smooth and natural though

I playfully say "hey!"
She turns back towards me, smiles bigger and says "hi!"
She's way cuter than I had originally thought!

Then we get into a general light getting-to-know conversation. I had locked myself in, leaning against a car. Turns out she'd lost her bike and was looking for it, teased her about it. The whole thing is playful, and we also found out some commonalities which boosted the social frame - favorite cities, views about the locals, etc.

I realize that we're well past the hook point and enjoying the conversation. I ask "Hey, what are you upto later?"
"Nothing special I guess, I was supposed to go play tennis but I got no bike lol"
"Haha perfect. Let's get a drink and keep on talking"
"Sure!"

Instant Date​

Not too many decent spots nearby. I take her to a small Irish pub. Loud music, but this is still more intimate than the cafe I was going to.

She takes off her coat and sits opposite me. Doesn't wanna drink alcohol, we order some non alcoholic beer.

I notice some tattoos on her arms. We're talking, still playful. I make a small sexual innuendo, she laughs with a bit of suspicion in her eyes. I notice that I'm not in a dominant/masculine headspace, I almost felt apologetic after making the joke, didn't own it.

We start talking about the tattoos. I'm deep diving, about the story behind each. Go into how tattoos are a way for self-expression and owning your story. Get especially curious about her favorite tattoo and cold-read something about her personality which she agrees with.

I'm thinking I should escalate touch. I take her hand to examine another tattoo, she lets me but I sense some surprise and discomfort, so I just let it go and keep on talking.

We keep talking about deep stuff, childhood, culture and all, while I break it in-between with some light teasing. She's witty and playful, but calm. I felt somehow that even though I'm the one teasing her, I'm still the more reactive one.

It didn't feel right to try to touch her again. Normally I also ask a girl sitting opposite to come sit beside me after some point, but the vibe didn't feel right. Its like I've been hiding my intentions all this while, and now my balls have shrunk and I'm afraid of rejection! All in my head?

We talk some more, itts been like 1 hr in the bar by now. She then mentions she wants to leave in 10 mins since she wants to continue with some artwork she was making. <- This I guess was the sign she was done with the thing.

I say cool, refer to an earlier inside joke and say that we should continue that another day. She agrees and we exchange numbers.

I walk her to her busstop which is on my way home, and at the busstop I decide I should try and ask her to come home (super bad timing in retrospect).

Vibe got a bit awkward, tried to salvage by changing the subject, hugged her bye and left with a neutral vibe.

Texting​

We bantered a bit on text and left it there. 2 days later I asked her to meet.
She then took a while to reply and wrote that its better we don't meet coz she didn't feel we hit it off. But thanked for the nice conversation.

Takeaways​

I'm pussyfooting hard, and especially when I'm trying indirect. Also feeling less dominant and low-momentum in general. Maybe I should stick to direct till I sort things out. Direct kinda gives me "permission" to be more dominant. I will eventually have to figure out a way to do that while running indirect.

Sometimes you can tease a girl and still come off as friendly. Teases should be more sexual/chase-framey

Indirect opener =/= indirect later.

As soon as it's a date it's the same as all the other dates, where you have to escalate and pull. And to do that eventually you have to start, well, escalating.

Could it be that you wanting to experiment with indirect led you to believe that indirect = not showing intent?

Yeah @DarkJedi it seems to me like you were so absorbed in how you wanted to make the approach that mentally you never switched back to 'normal seduction' afterward.

With the touching you did on the date, when you end up in a situation where you are too mentally passive, and you made a half-move and then pulled back, and you realize you should have been more committed, and then you realize she knows you messed up, and then you end up in this weird situation where you are sitting there tense hoping for an opportunity to rectify the situation while she's staring at you waiting for you to figure out the situation .. you really gotta kick yourself and realize SHE'S RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOU AND SOON SHE WON'T BE!

What I do when this happens is just look her dead in the eye and smile with hard eye contact and be still for a few moments, and allow all the tension to wash over us. What this does is reverses the feeling that you are trying to hide from something, it makes your adrenaline pump a little bit, gets you out of your head, focuses your mind, and prepares the space between you for something sexual again.

And even just doing that on its own, is a signal to her like 'I know what just happened, maybe I fucked up but I don't care, I'm not gonna hide anything and you're still mine'. And that's literally what I think to myself as I'm doing it. And she knows what it means. It means you aren't beaten easily by obstacles when there's something you want. And guess what, it turns her on.

 

[DarkJedi]

With the touching you did on the date, when you end up in a situation where you are too mentally passive, and you made a half-move and then pulled back, and you realize you should have been more committed, and then you realize she knows you messed up, and then you end up in this weird situation where you are sitting there tense hoping for an opportunity to rectify the situation while she's staring at you waiting for you to figure out the situation

Couldn't have described my state better. Exactly, I felt passive, non-dominant.

In that state, I realize I struggle with transitioning between vibes in general too. Like from social to seductive etc.

What I do when this happens is just look her dead in the eye and smile with hard eye contact and be still for a few moments, and allow all the tension to wash over us. What this does is reverses the feeling that you are trying to hide from something, it makes your adrenaline pump a little bit, gets you out of your head, focuses your mind, and prepares the space between you for something sexual again.

Damn, I'm stealing this. Can imagine it can be tough to pull off in that passive state, but I now know what to do.

And she knows what it means. It means you aren't beaten easily by obstacles when there's something you want.

Yes! I think I get too worried about generating more negative compliance. But I'm then playing too safe and will lose the girl in any case if I don't do anything

 

[Will_V]

Damn, I'm stealing this. Can imagine it can be tough to pull off in that passive state, but I now know what to do.

It's not easy, and you need to sort of feel angry - not a desperate or vicious anger, but an unacceptance of the state of being passive and losing the initiative. It's I believe what Zan Perrion calls the 'lower emotions' or something of the sort. Because the problem to begin with is that those emotions are locked away, and we are afraid of them being seen by other people.

I remember clearly the night when I first got laid. It was in this club with a lot of dancing and loud music, and being inexperienced I didn't know how to isolate or anything. And I was talking to this girl and she would show some interest, then go off and dance with some other dude, sometimes glance over at me and then look away. I knew I didn't have the situation under control, but I really, really wanted her. I would stand there nursing my beer trying to stay chill. And I kind of got angry in the sense I was pumped up and activated, and every time she came over to talk I would look her in the eye as if to say "I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, but I'm gonna find a way to get you", even though I was smiling and making conversation. And that really electrified things between us. I'm quite sure that's why she basically laid out a path for me to bumble along.

That's my instinct now every time I end up in a situation where I feel out of control or stuck. I bring out a little bit of my drive and trust that she will accept and respond to it. And if she doesn't, at least I am happy and unified with myself - and she's probably not my kind of girl anyway.

 

[DarkJedi]

Because the problem to begin with is that those emotions are locked away, and we are afraid of them being seen by other people.

Ahh yeah, the shadow self

I remember clearly the night when I first got laid. It was in this club with a lot of dancing and loud music, and being inexperienced I didn't know how to isolate or anything. And I was talking to this girl and she would show some interest, then go off and dance with some other dude, sometimes glance over at me and then look away. I knew I didn't have the situation under control, but I really, really wanted her. I would stand there nursing my beer trying to stay chill. And I kind of got angry in the sense I was pumped up and activated, and every time she came over to talk I would look her in the eye as if to say "I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, but I'm gonna find a way to get you", even though I was smiling and making conversation. And that really electrified things between us. I'm quite sure that's why she basically laid out a path for me to bumble along.

Wow dude, you lost your virginity to cold approach nightgame. Props!

I bring out a little bit of my drive and trust that she will accept and respond to it. And if she doesn't, at least I am happy and unified with myself - and she's probably not my kind of girl anyway.

Yeah I find it fascinating that a lot of dominance/drive boils down to self-trust and detachment from the outcome. That's why simple "natural" direct game is probably easier for newbies initially. Coz technical game is about controlling the situation, and its a fine line to skirt without getting bogged down by thinking about desired outcomes.

 

[Will_V]

Wow dude, you lost your virginity to cold approach nightgame. Props!

It was in Brazil so a little easier than in USA or Aus, but my framework for dealing with girls at the time was so busted it still took a few months of partying!

Yeah I find it fascinating that a lot of dominance/drive boils down to self-trust and detachment from the outcome. That's why simple "natural" direct game is probably easier for newbies initially. Coz technical game is about controlling the situation, and its a fine line to skirt without getting bogged down by thinking about desired outcomes.

Self trust and detachment from outcome is good for guys at all levels. I just happened to get a good first lesson in the reality that women don't really want or need something smooth and polished, and will help you along, as long as she sees something captivating. I mentioned that because ever since that time I do it reflexively when things are at risk of fizzing out or where I've fumbled a frame, I go 'all in' and try to put myself on the line with the nonverbal expression of my intent, because I know it's the only situation where I can walk away feeling content.

On a date if things are boring I will sometimes just reach out and tug her hair or pat her on the tailbone or something, she'll look at me quizzically and I just lock eyes and smile as if I'm just playing around. Very rarely she'll get testy, because I'm elated and she knows that, and of course it improves the frame especially if there's already attraction there.

Everyone has a unique style of game, mine has always been about self expression. I can be completely happy with rejections as long as I'm having fun being me. And she's usually looking for that as well.

 

[Chase]

@DarkJedi,

Great open and instant date here!

Pretty nice to see you run down a girl like this and have it go well. A lot of guys are scared to do that. Afraid they'll look like creeps.

You were aware of her being aware, knew you needed to open her quick and not dawdle, and you did... and she was feeling it.

Smooth.

There were some calibration issues here I'll point out on the instant date:

I playfully say "hey!"
She turns back towards me, smiles bigger and says "hi!"
She's way cuter than I had originally thought!

Then we get into a general light getting-to-know conversation. I had locked myself in, leaning against a car. Turns out she'd lost her bike and was looking for it, teased her about it. The whole thing is playful, and we also found out some commonalities which boosted the social frame - favorite cities, views about the locals, etc.

I realize that we're well past the hook point and enjoying the conversation. I ask "Hey, what are you upto later?"
"Nothing special I guess, I was supposed to go play tennis but I got no bike lol"
"Haha perfect. Let's get a drink and keep on talking"
"Sure!"

So this whole bit is pitch perfect.

You're both into each other, she's clearly curious -- excellent start.

Not too many decent spots nearby. I take her to a small Irish pub. Loud music, but this is still more intimate than the cafe I was going to.

She takes off her coat and sits opposite me. Doesn't wanna drink alcohol, we order some non alcoholic beer.

I notice some tattoos on her arms. We're talking, still playful. I make a small sexual innuendo, she laughs with a bit of suspicion in her eyes. I notice that I'm not in a dominant/masculine headspace, I almost felt apologetic after making the joke, didn't own it.

This is Stumbling Block #1.

So here's the thing with sexual innuendo: it's less about owning it and more about working up to it.

Best thing is to get her comfortable first, get a little rapport going, get some connection established, get the banter going back and forth, THEN slip in a little light innuendo and see how she responds.

If she's firmly hooked, feeling connected, bantering with you, it's often going to go over well.

If you try to do it before the rapport is there, though, it can feel like you're a guy who just goes around sexualizing every girl he talks to. No bueno. Suspicious gazes all over the place!

Can be doable as well with girls who banter with you a lot early and also hint at sexual topics. Some girls start throwing out innuendo themselves, or giving you sexy looks that suggest they're cool with it, or signaling in other ways. If you see that you can test the waters early on too.

Otherwise, you want her hooked in and comfortable before you start floating a little innuendo out there.

(the other thing to say here is... well, I don't know what innuendo you used here and how 'small' it was... but IMO the first one should be very light, very harmless, and you should be moving the conversation along immediately after dropping it, while gauging her reaction. If good, great: try more innuendo again soon, a little heavier this time. If no good, then build more rapport for a while before you try again)

We start talking about the tattoos. I'm deep diving, about the story behind each. Go into how tattoos are a way for self-expression and owning your story. Get especially curious about her favorite tattoo and cold-read something about her personality which she agrees with.

This is Stumbling Block #2.

Do you have tattoos yourself?

Have you done this type of thing with girls before?

I will tell you that just personally, at least as a guy without tattoos, I have found that doing the "tell me all about your tats" thing is a dead-end cul-de-sac with tattooed girls.

It FEELS LIKE it should be the same as any other kind of deep diving... you're getting to know them, digging into their motivations to get the tat, etc.

Yet regardless the vibe just becomes super non-intimate.

I THINK the reason this happens is:

1. Deep diving works because you get girls telling you about things they rarely/never talk about with people, especially not strangers.
   
   
2. Her TATTOOS are something that EVERYBODY notices about, and a LOT of them ask her those same kinds of "what's the meaning of this one", "what motivated you to get it", etc. questions that you'd ask in a normal deep dive.

Thus, rather build a unique and special connection with her, you give her the same tired generic conversation she has with every Looky Lou her digs her tattoos.

(maybe it's different if you've got your own body art you can compare notes on... if you can do "Oh why'd you get that one? Interesting. You see this one I have right here, it came about because of blah blah blah..." But if it's all one-sided asking her the same stuff everyone asks her, you're toast)

Anyway, ultimately I just decided not to even talk to girls about their tattoos.

I think that's actually MORE interesting, especially if the tattoos are prominent. "He's not even asking about my tattoos... not feigning interest, not asking all those generic questions, not acting excited... but he's not judgmental either... has he NOTICED them?"

She got those tattoos to stand out. Not noticing the thing she deliberately got to be noticed that everybody else notices is a curious and intriguing thing.

I'm thinking I should escalate touch. I take her hand to examine another tattoo, she lets me but I sense some surprise and discomfort, so I just let it go and keep on talking.

Yeah, see, again: same thing every guy who chats her up does.

"Oh, let me take a look at your tattoo!" *touch*

What made this pickup work at the outset was how fresh and sincere that opening was.

I guarantee she has NEVER been opened by a guy like that before.

What bombed it on the date was the rushed innuendo (before sufficient rapport was established) and the generic tattoo talk and "seen it a million times, bub" tattoo-as-an-excuse-to-touch-her.

(for the record: you CAN use tattoos as an excuse to touch later on, once she's very comfortable with you, and really feeling you... at that point it registers for her as "Oh, now he is doing that same thing every guy does... I don't like it when they do it... but I have been WAITING for him to get closer with me... I'm happy to see HIM do it now!" But you don't want to do that before she's ready and opening escalation windows for it -- otherwise it throws too many "seen it all before" switches in her head)

We keep talking about deep stuff, childhood, culture and all, while I break it in-between with some light teasing. She's witty and playful, but calm. I felt somehow that even though I'm the one teasing her, I'm still the more reactive one.

Yes.

If you try to force stuff too soon and it doesn't hit, you'll slip into reaction mode.

If you run generic game on girls, that they have seen a bunch of times already, and they reflect that back to you with their lack of interest or excitement toward it, you'll start to feel tryhard and will begin to grasp about looking for something, anything to right the ship -- again, sliding into reaction mode.

It didn't feel right to try to touch her again. Normally I also ask a girl sitting opposite to come sit beside me after some point, but the vibe didn't feel right. Its like I've been hiding my intentions all this while, and now my balls have shrunk and I'm afraid of rejection! All in my head?

The problem wasn't hiding intentions.

Your intentions were VERY clear from the outset: man checking out woman, opening her, inviting her to get drinks... she knows what it's about.

If anything, you were too pushy: innuendo right away before she's ready, jumping right into the same tattoo interview she's had with 10 other guys. Very quickly she is saying to herself, "Oh, I know what this is, I know what it's about, but I don't know... I'm just not feeling a connection," because you're pushing for it without having her share about anything she doesn't normally share about.

We talk some more, itts been like 1 hr in the bar by now. She then mentions she wants to leave in 10 mins since she wants to continue with some artwork she was making. <- This I guess was the sign she was done with the thing.

Yep.

I say cool, refer to an earlier inside joke and say that we should continue that another day. She agrees and we exchange numbers.

I walk her to her busstop which is on my way home, and at the busstop I decide I should try and ask her to come home (super bad timing in retrospect).

Ah, uh-huh.

I'll never dock a man points for trying, though!

The way you learn better timing is by trying all this stuff and figuring out when it clicks versus when it doesn't.

You learned a time/scenario when it doesn't. Good lesson.

Same deal with the innuendo. You tried working it in too soon, before there was rapport -- lesson learned. That's how you find this stuff out.

Vibe got a bit awkward, tried to salvage by changing the subject, hugged her bye and left with a neutral vibe.

Texting​

We bantered a bit on text and left it there. 2 days later I asked her to meet.
She then took a while to reply and wrote that its better we don't meet coz she didn't feel we hit it off. But thanked for the nice conversation.

I'm sure you felt that coming a mile away.

This one was over during the tattoos interview.

She still hung around for a while in case you could salvage it. But you were running from behind at that point.

Takeaways​

I'm pussyfooting hard, and especially when I'm trying indirect. Also feeling less dominant and low-momentum in general. Maybe I should stick to direct till I sort things out. Direct kinda gives me "permission" to be more dominant. I will eventually have to figure out a way to do that while running indirect.

Sometimes you can tease a girl and still come off as friendly. Teases should be more sexual/chase-framey

Allow me to suggest an alternative takeaway:

INSUFFICIENT PUSSYFOOTING!

The innuendo was too soon, probably not as small as you thought, and it wasn't dropped and moved on from smoothly enough.

That combined with generic rapport building on a topic she's "seen too many times already" ended up giving her the gist that she knows what you are after but doesn't feel like you want her for any reason special to her... you're just a dude with a dick looking to find a home for it.

Focus on introducing your innuendo more seamlessly in the conversation -- either after rapport and banter are well established OR after she's signaled fairly obviously that she's just that kinda chick -- and AVOID deep diving on obvious peacocked aspects about a girl that you know every other guy asks her the same types of questions about (tattoos, fake boobs, outrageous hairstyle, extremely eye-catching clothing item or accessory, etc.).

You'll do a better job creating a seduction that feels unique to the girl -- and that, ultimately, is what every girl is hoping to experience with you.

Make a Girl Feel Special: Seduction's Silver Bullet

When I first decided to start tackling women and dating as a skill set to methodically improve at the end of 2004, I went into it with three distinct aims: Be a seductive, charming bad boy, Constantly test the limits and push to improve, and Make women feel special. I didn't know exactly what I...

www.girlschase.com

Cheers,
Chase

 

[Atlas IV]

I THINK the reason this happens is:

1. Deep diving works because you get girls telling you about things they rarely/never talk about with people, especially not strangers.
   
   
2. Her TATTOOS are something that EVERYBODY notices about, and a LOT of them ask her those same kinds of "what's the meaning of this one", "what motivated you to get it", etc. questions that you'd ask in a normal deep dive.

Thus, rather build a unique and special connection with her, you give her the same tired generic conversation she has with every Looky Lou her digs her tattoos.

Having a big realization right here. This explains why complimenting a girl on her tattoos almost never works for me. They've heard that line so many times that they're downright sick of it.

It's like the 20 questions you get asked as a foreigner in a foreign country - where are you from, why are you here, how did you learn the language, do you like the food, are you married, etc. They think they're getting to know you really well, but they have no idea that you've answered these questions a million times.

Perhaps this could be extended to - ignore the most obvious thing about her and compliment something totally unrelated? Like if a girl has extravagant hair that attracts a lot of attention, she might expect that you're going to comment on it, but instead you compliment her walk or her fashion. It could take her by surprise and give you a stronger frame.

 

[Chase]

@Atlas IV,

It's like the 20 questions you get asked as a foreigner in a foreign country - where are you from, why are you here, how did you learn the language, do you like the food, are you married, etc. They think they're getting to know you really well, but they have no idea that you've answered these questions a million times.

Oh yeah, tell me about it.

"Egads... not THIS question sequence again!"

Perhaps this could be extended to - ignore the most obvious thing about her and compliment something totally unrelated? Like if a girl has extravagant hair that attracts a lot of attention, she might expect that you're going to comment on it, but instead you compliment her walk or her fashion. It could take her by surprise and give you a stronger frame.

Correct.

Chatting up chicks on their most obvious/peacocked qualities, especially if those are things that've been obvious about them or that they've peacocked for a long time, is very "risk of coming across generic" territory.

It's like the old line of wisdom:

Compliment a good-looking girl on her smarts. Compliment a smart girl on her looks.

Chase

 

[DarkJedi]

Very different take, @Chase . Definitely makes me realize some things!

Allow me to suggest an alternative takeaway:

INSUFFICIENT PUSSYFOOTING!

You'll do a better job creating a seduction that feels unique to the girl -- and that, ultimately, is what every girl is hoping to experience with you.

I have traditionally been the guy who's taken his time to move forward with girls, and I think I lost a few girls because of that. Cases in point: texting too long thinking the girl needs more connection until it fizzles out. Being on instant dates where they opened warmly but not making a move soon, never seeing them again. Deep diving and getting them to talk about hopes and dreams but then hearing they just loved the conversation and that's it.

Then last year I took a shy girl on an instant date, and even though we didn't have a strong connection, I just escalated touch, kissed her and directly asked her to meet me at my home for the next date. That made me think all the failed ones were because I moved slow with escalation. Also, reading some LR's here shows me things can go much faster.

But I'm wondering if I've actually been failing to build arousal and connection properly. The touch when it works seems to be a shortcut to building that. Accepted touch -> compliance -> spike in arousal and connection?

That being said, yes, my most memorable experiences have been where we've both felt super connected and I can imagine she felt special. Like it was meant to be. It seems to happen automatically with some girls, but I'm yet to be able to make it happen with girls consistently.

Great open and instant date here!

Pretty nice to see you run down a girl like this and have it go well. A lot of guys are scared to do that. Afraid they'll look like creeps.

You were aware of her being aware, knew you needed to open her quick and not dawdle, and you did... and she was feeling it.

Smooth.

Thanks!

So here's the thing with sexual innuendo: it's less about owning it and more about working up to it.

Best thing is to get her comfortable first, get a little rapport going, get some connection established, get the banter going back and forth, THEN slip in a little light innuendo and see how she responds.

If she's firmly hooked, feeling connected, bantering with you, it's often going to go over well.

Yeah, makes sense. Guess I need some more reference experiences to tune my calibration. Feel out how connected she is.

The reason I mentioned owning it is that I've noticed, when I'm more in a dominant headspace, with better vocal tonality and other non-verbals, girls fall into my frame more easily. Be it teasing them or asking for compliance. The way I see it, when a girl is more submissive or is more compliant, I can be less dominant and still get her to comply. but for the ones more in the fence, I need to be more dominant/masculine.

Do you have tattoos yourself?

Have you done this type of thing with girls before?

I will tell you that just personally, at least as a guy without tattoos, I have found that doing the "tell me all about your tats" thing is a dead-end cul-de-sac with tattooed girls.

It FEELS LIKE it should be the same as any other kind of deep diving... you're getting to know them, digging into their motivations to get the tat, etc.

Yet regardless the vibe just becomes super non-intimate.

I don't have tattoos, and now that you mention it, the girl had asked somewhere in my tattoo interview whether I have tattoos myself and whether I'd want some. I had said that I'm open to it but I hadn't found something that inspires me enough till now. <- probably reduced our similarity here.

I've never opened girls by talking about their tattoos before. I instinctively felt that it was too easy a way in and everyone does that, but I have talked about them while already in conversation. I've also seen girl friends love to talk about their tattoos, so thought it would be a good deep dive topic.

What you say makes perfect sense though. I'm gonna reserve the tattoo comments for when she's already feeling more connected.

She still hung around for a while in case you could salvage it. But you were running from behind at that point.

What would have been a good way to salvage it at this point? Change venues maybe and try to build more connection?

By the way, something I missed adding in the report: since she was being responsive to texts, for shits and giggles I had sent her a feedback text: "a bit surprising you say that, thought we had a connection. Was it coz of a lack of sexual spark or the little bit of awkwardness in the end?"
She replied "a bit of both I think. But the conversation was very nice!".
I know this is girl-speak and I led her onto those 2 options, but thought I should mention it.