How to Write Female Characters?

[Ken]

Hey so I saw Loki a few months ago. I thought it was good, the best MCU TV show they have put out so far. But I noticed something about the series. I saw BlackDragon describe the lead character in Star Trek: Discovery as "off-putting and irritating". I feel like the same applies here.

Sylvie was set up to be the main villain, but it turns out that she wasn't. In the third episode, she and Loki have to work together to get off a planet that they are stranded in before it gets destroyed. I do like this concept, the concept of being stranded on a planet with someone who's trying to kill you. But that said, she was not inherently likeable. Loki was charismatic and witty, and she was not. She came off as angry all the time. Also she is an alternate universe version of Loki, or a Variant as they call it in this series. They do not go into why she became a female. Loki falls in love with himself and kisses her in the finale. He nearly did it in episode four, but he was vaporized before he could make the biggest mistake of his life. Not so much in the final episode.

Hunter B-15 I thought was going to be the most unlikeable female character in this series, but it turns out she wasn't. She is the type of character that would only exist in a show made in the 2020s. In the first episode, we see her bring in Loki and having inherent power over him in the form of a Time Variance Authority collar. Then she landed some punches on Loki before he took off the collar and put it on her. Then later on we learn that she is a victim of the TVA stealing people from across time and brainwashing them to become agents.

Ravonna Renslayer starts off as a boss who is a hardass to Mobius M. Mobius, one of her agents. Then it turns out that she was the real villain of the series, enforcing the corruption in the TVA. She chose her job over her friendship to Agent Mobius, and then she just fucks off to parts unknown for some reason after beating Mobius in a fight.

So my question is: how would I write a female character if I was writing a apolitical story with strong male leads? I don't want them to be damsels in distress, but at the same time I don't want to write them like Hollywood writes most of them these days, as completely good at everything.

 

[Chase]

@Ken,

I watched that Loki series. Quite enjoyed it. The guy who came up with the show / the writing team clearly has a good grasp on these different psychological profiles: the Narcissistic Histrionic (Loki); the Antisocial Paranoiac (Sylvie). Then you have the Therapist (Owen Wilson), and the Judge (Ravonna).

However, it’s suffering from a nearly lethal dose of “so 2020s” in terms of a variety of things. The “every strong man is bossed around by an even stronger woman” theme is ever-present, and the women are not charismatic. Ravonna’s the most (only) attractive one and she’s still doing the “tough woman who don’t need no man” thing the whole way through.

Also, personal note, but the actress playing Sylvie is nearly 40 years old. There weren’t any hot 23-year-olds with English accents and decent acting chops? Why is the female lead so ancient?

I recently started re-watching the 1960s Star Trek: The Original Series. Second or third time I’ve watched it all the way through. Every time I am struck by the male-female dynamics there… the women are strong, yet feminine. The men are sensitive, yet masculine. The women, in general, when you combine their short skirts, great hair, and great bodies, with their more feminine personas, are pleasing in a way you almost cannot find in modern cinema.

A lot of Hollywood stuff today features people who are undeveloped; they haven’t really developed into women or men. They’re like churlish overgrown children who occasionally have meltdowns over unresolved childhood wounds and occasionally hook up but then don’t know how to deal with the consequences of that and bumble their way through things. The men are dolts who need women’s help, while the women clever and largely mistake-proof caricatures.

I would actually define the modern strong female protagonist as undeveloped, defensive, and off-putting (due to her churlish defensiveness).

Whereas the women in a lot of older media are fully developed adult women, sweet, sexy, and genuine, without the defenses, because they can actually hold their own without needing to put up a big wall.

Other older media you watch (from the 1950s or what have you) features women who are this way as well.

I think, if you want to write fiction that is not set in 2020s America (or, I mean, even if you do, and you just don’t want it to be a caricature), consuming some older media can help get you out of this head space of super smart can-do-everything women who don’t need no man and are fighting for the sisterhood to overcome their childhood traumas and make a better and more equal world for everyone.

Chase

 

[trashKENNUT]

Whereas the women in a lot of older media are fully developed adult women, sweet, sexy, and genuine, without the defenses, because they can actually hold their own without needing to put up a big wall.

Demi Moore on 'A Few Good Men'. Her scene with Colonel Jessup and the blowjob comment. Dang....

z@c+

 

[Train]

When I think of a balanced, well-written female character, I'm reminded of Katara from "The Last Airbender." She might help provide some food for thought on your question.

She was a well-written female main character that didn't depend on diminishing male characters around her but she wasn't a Mary Sue either. She had her strengths but also character flaws just like the rest of the characters. And she didn't have to take on male qualities to be a good character. She meshed well with the other characters without robbing the spotlight unnecessarily.

I've heard this echoed around: people like good characters that happen to be female/gay/etc. And not characters that are "good" because they are female/gay/etc. I've seen shows suffer whenever they put agendas first and writing second as a priority.

 

[Will_V]

The main thing is to clearly identify different roles for the male and female characters, rather than have them competing for the same one.

Create a hero's journey for the man, and a heroine's journey for the woman. They aren't the same at all.

 

[Ken]

@Chase

Thank you Chase. Your advice has been truly helpful. It has helped me figure out what type of stories I want to write and the goals I want to achieve as a writer.

By the way, I got On Writing last month and I've been reading it ever since. So good. I have learned so many things about writing just from reading it.

Ken

 

[Ken]

The main thing is to clearly identify different roles for the male and female characters, rather than have them competing for the same one.

Create a hero's journey for the man, and a heroine's journey for the woman. They aren't the same at all.

What is the heroine's journey for the woman?

 

[Spyce D]

What is the heroine's journey for the woman?

Definitely not like ours .

What's being bold for women ?

Being able to showcase their sexuality that too without judgement of others and able to wear to short dress .

Or sometimes they would say " I want to live life without needing a man " and then if you probe more they would tell that they were joking and why do I take everything so seriously .... Has happened with me lol .

Is it the same for men ?

Come to think of it ... A lot of stuff that female characters say in the movies , shows would have been seen as less cringe if male characters saw it as shit tests ..rather than factual stuff cuz thsts how it's in real life ..

 

[Will_V]

What is the heroine's journey for the woman?

To have the courage to make herself vulnerable to the beast that is a man, so that she has a chance of taming him.

 

[Ken]

To have the courage to make herself vulnerable to the beast that is a man, so that she has a chance of taming him.

I have heard about this before, but where would I learn more about this and what would I have to read in order to implement it properly in stories?

 

[Will_V]

I have heard about this before, but where would I learn more about this and what would I have to read in order to implement it properly in stories?

I don't know if any specific information sources, I just read a lot of books (and also did some unpublished writing).

You can see it though in every story - book or movie. A man's story revolves around developing his capabilities and dominating his world, and a woman's story revolves around negotiating her submission to the right man. Even in stories where the woman is given some mission or challenge that has nothing to do with men, sooner or later she rearranges all the pieces so that everything is orbiting around her relationship with a man or men.

This is simply the female imperative vs the male imperative that works at the deepest level of a person's nature. When a problem arises, the man looks to face it and win, whereas a woman looks for a man who can face it and win. Thence arise their respective stories.

As an aside I became aware of this very clearly at one point when I found myself very unattracted to women who behaved a certain way after meeting me - being extremely cautious and questioning everything - as well as when I came to realize that there are a lot of women who are pitiful in the same way that a boy who never becomes a man, despite growing older, is pitiful.

Like the incel male who can't bear to face the risk of going out into life and failing to perform well, these women have spent their whole life trying to avoid the risk of failing with men, and they end up stunted and unable to approach the risk of submitting or making themselves vulnerable to a man at all. The feeling you get when meeting either of them is the same, because they have both failed to accept the core challenge of their lives.

And it's very easy for me to fall in love with women who I can see are nervous and wouldn't normally do certain things, but are willing to risk it because they have decided that they want me and are willing to go after me. That for me is a courageous and admirable woman, and I always treat them very well even if things don't work out.

 

[POB]

Lucy from the Fallout series is a good (and recent) example of a great female role.